Czech OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

It was an accident, for I haven't seen IS-2 in a group of Soviet-origin tanks in a beginning of list.

I promise I'll check database before proposing new units next time

Maybe I'll finish what I have - although I think, I won't be fiddling with infantry platoons?... (there is quite complete history of infantry/MR platoon structures in Czech Internet, but it would demand creation of several new formations - which I can, of course, propose)

74 Strela-2 Team - http://forum.presscont.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=208 confirms information, that they appeared in CS from 1973 (now: 1/67). Might need change in formations' dates, for it is the only Infantry SAM (although now it appears is some units, that start at earlier date).

Strelas however weren't used in rifle nor MR platoons, which structures are described in Internet in detail. In bigger numbers, they became armament of AA platoons in motor rifle battalions, created only in beginning of 1980s (such platoon consisted of 3 APC, each with 2 Strela teams - http://forum.csla.cz/forums/thread/10.aspx )

82 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (this gun in Austrian service)

265 OT-64A SKOT - according to a book on OT-64, serial production in significant numbers started only in 8/64 and it was officially accepted only in May 1965. Therefore, earliest starting date should be around 1/65 (now: 1/64) (would need date change in formations). It had no fixed armament, only LMGs of troops' firing through open upper hatches.

272 LT-38G - in the Czechoslovak service it was just LT-38, without German variant letters. They were in inventory at least until 1949 (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_51.htm ) (now: until 5/47). According to this page http://www.fronta.cz/lt-vz-38 they were designated post-war as LT-38/37 (for gun caliber), also a book on Czech AFVs confirms LT vz.38/37.

273 M5A1 Stuart - it's doubtful, that coaxial MG would be changed to Soviet one - IMHO it should be #67 Browning. (It would be ideal to create also .30 BMG and AAMG, but I understand this is a waste of slots?...)

274 Cromwell - According to http://vojenstvi.cz/verteneverte-2007.htm , they were stored until 1959 (now it's 55).

BTW: correct designation of weapons #29-30 7.9mm vz.35 CMG/BMG should be vz.37, at least in tanks like LT-38. Maybe it would be better to rename it as generic "7.9mm CMG/BMG", so that they cover vz.37, Besa and German ones?..

275 Challenger - picture shows Charioteer (I proposed picture of Challenger in other thread). Used - as above (although they were less numerous and might not survive as long, as Cromwell).

276, 286 Cromwell Mk.VI - according to a Polish book on Cromwells, HEAT round for 95mm howitzer was only experimental - it should be checked. If it's named Cromwell Mk.VI, maybe units 274 and 284 should be called Mk.IV?

300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062.

Regards
Michal

NO, pic 11000 is the correct number, it just never made it to the last patch file but has now.

Don

[Pibwl]

Further commenst - more or less useful...

350 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture IMHO is 29409 (current one shows unknown soldiers, rather not Czechoslovak ones, and obscured MG).

368 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (in Austrian service). Original Czech designation was vz.52.

373 SPG-82 RCL - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. Knowing the Czech practice, it would be strange to buy it, while developing their own T21 Tarasnice. In any case, it was accepted for the Soviet Army only in 1950 (http://weapon.at.ua/load/220-1-0-847 and others), so it couldn't be used earlier here. It would need change or removal of formation #83 (it's the only unit in this class). I'll attach later a proper picture for SPG-82.

376, 377 M59 RCL HE, M59 Recoilless - much better picture is of the Soviet B-11 11068 or 29397 (it was always supported on two big wheels). Or I'll attach a proper picture.

(BTW: picture 11068 doesn't look much like 107 mm B-11, much better is 29397, currently unused - for all countries, including Russia)

378 RPG-2 Team - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. They developed own P-27 instead.

380 57mm AA-Gun - like comments on unit #89 (first date 1/50 is doubtful, since a production in the USSR started that year. I've only found info on rearming one unit in 1960. It isn't mentioned among AA armament on Czech MoD page now. Maybe better name would be 57mm S60 AA-Gun or 57mm S-60 AAG?)

389 etc Para scouts:
Like comments on para sections. According to one comment on http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11593 , early paratroops used
StG-44 (#12, pic 23062). I believe, that if not StG-44, then scouts were rather given PPS-43 or MP-40 SMG rather than rifles. From early 50s, paratroops were for sure given Sa 26 SMG (lbm 37103). There are no signs of RPG-2 usage (maybe Panzerfaust instead?). There are also no signs of AK-47 usage in Czechoslovakia.

401 BA-64 - according to a Russian book on GAZ-67-based vehicles, only 10 BA-64 were used in the Czechoslovak corps during the war (and no mention on further sales). No mention on this car also here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

It might be replaced with Humber LRC III with similar icon and specs. Armed as built in Bren and Boys AT-rifle, equipped with a reloadable smoke mortar, available from 1/46 to some 1950s, speed 97 km/h. I'll attach a picture (same unit I've proposed for Egypt).

402 OT-810 - produced only since 1959. Carry was only 111, speed=20 (60 km/h - stronger engine, than SdKfz-251), armament - 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG (definitely not 12.7 mm one) (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/3...tle/CZK-OT-810 ). Top was fully armoured (icon is correct here) - unless, of course, gunner's hatch is open. Also known as OT-810 HaKo or HAKO (Hanomag Koprivnice).

Proposed unit: HKL6p or OPp3N HKL6p or HKL6p HAKL (last is unofficial name) - original German SdKfz-251 APC, used from 1/46 until about 1960 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11469 ). Eg. unit 168 from Spanish oob (but carry = 110-111)

There was also used Sdkfz-250 as D-7p, but in unknown quantities (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18782 ).

403 ST-1 Hetzer - according to a book "in Czechoslovak army's service the Rundumfeur machine gun was deleted". Original designation's way of writing was ST-I (I doubt, if the name Hetzer was used - or is it only for easier identification?).

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Correction: I don't know how numerous was in fact Humber LRC III - at least one existed after the war, but it might have been not numerous car.

I have no information on White Scout Car (unit 400) in Czechoslovak Army, and it isn't mentioned on the quoted page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

On the other hand, quite popular in the Czechoslovak army until mid-50s was Humber Scout Car. They also used some number of M5A1 halftracks and Bren carriers.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

404 BPzV Svatava - it was produced from 1988 (now: 1/98). According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18501 , withdrawn in 2009 (now: 12/120). Missiles should be #145 Malutka, like in normal BMP-1/BVP-1 (semi-automatic Malutka-P wasn't fired from BMP launcher - it could be theoretically used, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It had 6-tube SD (now: SD:3)

It was an armoured reconnaissance vehicle - formations 96, 97 Support APC should be IMO renamed according to real role of the vehicle (and dates should be changed according to BPzV). It's worth IMO to add also Scouts, carried by these vehicles.

405, 406 MT-LB/120 - the Czechoslovak Army didn't use any SP-mortars before PRAM #418.

407 BRM-1 - precisely, BRM-1K. It was a recce vehicle, and carried only 3 crew + 3 (or 2+4). It should have GSR, laser RF and 6-tube SD. According to Russian sources, speed was like normal BMP-1 (65 km/h, now 24) and it carried only 20 rounds of ammunition. Better icon would be BMP-2 due to bigger two-men turret.

410 BTR-40 - I've found no signs suggesting, that BTR-40 served in Czechoslovakia, and it isn't mentioned here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

411 BRDM-1 - 12.7 mm MG was very rare on BRDM-1 (if used at all) - see comments for unit #51, also for a period of usage.

412 BRDM-2 - there's no evidence of BRDM-2 used in CS, apart from NBC recce variant - see comments for unit #53.

414 IS-IIm1944 - name should be changed just to IS-II or rather IS-2 (see http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1120 , m1944 is modern designation) - especially, that we have no other IS-2 variants.

416 Praga M53/59 - name could be changed to M53/59 Jesterka (popular name, meaning Lizard) or official PLDvK vz.53/59 (but it doesn't have to be changed).

417 2S4 24cm SPM - name is 2S4 Tulpan. The page http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_81.htm (no.1202) suggests it was used until 1993 (now it's 91). Used from 1984, but I don't know when exactly (now: 1/85).

419 T-40/75N (PzKfw-IV) - used only from 1948, after repairs (now: 1/46) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...-cudzich-armad ). Used until 1956, stored until 1959 (other "obsolete tank" class T-40/75N might be created). There's no evidence, that they carried hull side skirts, on photos they are only on turrets.

422 Praga M53/59M - see #416

425 Lisunov 2 - proper name Lisunov Li-2 or just Li-2

430 BTR-40 AOP - as 410. No signs of its usage.

I proposed earlier to create actually used AOP version of OT-65.

433, 434 UAZ-69 Schmel - only 1 was delivered to Czechoslovakia for tests, in 1964 (http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=569) or 62/63. To be removed IMO. (formation #82 should be changed according to notes on unit #33).

491 OT-810D - both basic OT-810 and vz.59 gun were introduced only in 1959, so it's earliest possible date (now: 1/54). It also had 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG and ranging MG for a gun. Ammunition for 82mm gun was 30, speed was 20 (60 km/h) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18793 )

541 M77 Dana - Dana has 12.7 DShK AAMG, not NSV. It can carry 60 artillery rounds. According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , first introduced to units in 1980 (now: 1/77)

542 Komsolets - as I've mentioned in other place, it should be changed to some other tractor, for example Ja-12.

Specifications would be similar, speed up to 38 km/h, picture - 29395, some trucklike icon, used until 1954 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17698 ).

In around 1960-75? Czechoslovakia used also Polish D-530 Mazur tractor: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/19582 . Specifications would be similar, speed up to 53 km/h, picture - 29390, some trucklike icon.

Czechoslovakia used also several types of ex-German SdKfz tractors.


Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Closing to an end...

249 Crew - could use picture 37249 of CZ-75 pistol.

252 K61 - it was used from 1957 (now: 1/63) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13543 ). Would need change in form. 335, as the earliest unit.
Changes concerning all countries, according to Russian sources, as I've written in other place: speed was only 36 km/h (now: 18), and on water - 10 km/h (now: 6), it could carry 40 soldiers or a gun or a truck, crew was 2 (BTW: in Russian/Czech sources it's always written "K-61").

253 PTS-M - known locally as PTS-10, it was used from 1962 at least until 2003 (now: 1/68-12/93) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13003 ). My guess would be until 12/120 - they are useful machines, especially in case of floods, with no successors in the army. Would need change in form. 335.
Changes concerning all countries: speed was only 42 km/h and 10 km/h on water (now: 18/6).

Also a possible addition is ZiL-485 BAV http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13008 - used at least from 1957 until some 80s.
By the way, as photos show, this and K-61 could mount 2x30mm AA guns...

407 BRM-1 - bought in 1987 (now: 1/91) (article in Polish Nowa Technika Wojskowa 1/2001)

481 Malutka-2 ATGM - there was no such thing. Malutka-2 is a Russian late commercial version with twin HEAT warhead - I don't know if any country bought this otherwise obsolete system, but Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic did not. The weapon #155 Malutka-P indicates, that this isn't twin warhead version, but semi-automatic version, fit for BRDM SP-launchers. Malutka-P could be fired from portable launchers, but in manual mode only, without benefits of increased accuracy comparing with earlier versions.
I don't know, if unit #480 should have increased lifespan instead of unit 481.

484, 485 T21 Recoilless - Para-RR - the para RR team would surely use SMGs instead of rifles, initially probably PPS or PPSh or MP-40, from the 1950s.: Sa 26 (#006 vz/24 SMG) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/16961 - Sa vz.24 was a variant with fixed stock). Same for secondary armament of 475, 476 SG-43 MMG [2]

All snipers: more proper picture is 37112 - Vz.54 sniper rifle http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareVZ54.htm
Later snipers could use SVD 11112 (actually, from mid-70s).

If we make paratroops available earlier, what I've suggested (first experimental battalion existed in 1947), they should have transport. In a quoted article on the CS aviation until 1950 there's no mention about Lisunov Li-2 (unit 425, available from 1/50) - probably they were bought later. At first, CS aviation used Junkers Ju-52 (known as D-52) and C-47 (known locally as D-47) bought in 1946 from US stock.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

As for ZiL-485 BAV - #185 from Russian oob, with corrections like: no fixed armament, max sped 65 km/h on land, 10 km/h on water, picture 29202 (usually DUKW is used at the moment), carry=some 125 (it could carry guns or jeeps).

Artillery

I've omitted it so far. I only wanted to correct pictures first, but when I started to dig... It took me several hours.

Apart from a quoted inventory http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 , informations below are based on a series of pages devoted to artillery of Czechoslovak army in different periods:
[1] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3105
[2] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3156
[3] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3357
[4] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3025

91 122mm Field Gun - vz.38 (obr38, M-30) howitzer was used at least until 1981 (now 12/76) [link 4]

92 122mm Field Gun (D-30) - link 4 says, that D-30 replaced vz.38 howitzers from 1981. Lack of this gun on a table: http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...901&fullsize=1 presenting equipment until 1980 strongly suggests, that it wasn't used before 1981 (now: 1/69)

96 130mm M46 FG - one brigade was rearmed with these guns in 1976 (now 1/91) (I'm repeating it here for a sake of completeness)

171 76mm Platoon - extinct by 1968 (now 12/75) - table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1

172 85mm Platoon - correct pic is 25009 (M52 gun)

173 122mm Platoon (obr38) - used until 1981 - see #91

174 122mm Platoon (D-30) - used from 1981 - see #92

175 130mm Platoon - used from 1976 (now 1/91) - like #96 unit

176 122mm Gun Pl (M.31/37) - correct pic is 41091. According to link 2, there were none in May 1951. There's no date of first appearance given, only that in bigger numbers it appeared from 1955 (now: 1/50)

177 152mm Platoon - D-20 howitzers weren't used in Czechoslovakia - there's no sign of them on any of these pages.

Should be changed to basic Czech 152 mm FH from 1950 until 1980s at least - weapon #113 152mm M18/46 FH (vz.18/47, German 150 mm sFH-18 converted to Soviet ammo). Similar pic is 23077 (original sFH-18) (earlier entry before 1950 is unit #498)

179 105 mm Platoon (vz.18/40, German leFH-18) - correct pic is 23500. According to table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 extinct between 1960 and 1968 (now: 12/96)

180 122mm Platoon - D-74 long range guns weren't used in Czechoslovakia - no sign on quoted pages.

498 152mm Battery (vz.18/47) - more proper pic is 23077 (original sFH-18 howitzer).

500 76mm Battery - weapons should be just popular #122 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG, like unit 171 (weapon 241 is Soviet prewar F-22 gun with long barrel, not used in CS, especially post war)

502 152mm Battery - there's no sign on quoted pages, that Czechoslovakia used Soviet D-1 howitzers. Might be replaced with German 150 mm vz.18N (sFH-18) (used until late 1950s.) - eg. Bulgarian unit #343 (range of Bulgarian weapon #242 and Portugal #115 is probably overstated - 212, while it was only 13.2 km and it should be IMO 203 - more on this subject below)

(If you decide to leave it, correct pic for D-1 howitzer is 29402 - BTW, mine)

503 122mm Gun Bty (vz.31/37 FG) - according to link 2, there were none before 1951 - in bigger numbers they appeared only from 1955. So it should be deleted - after 1950 we have unit #176. BTW, correct pic is 41091.

It might be replaced with German vz.18N (sK-18), used in small number until 1950s - eg. Bulgarian unit #343, but range should be 19-21 km depending on version (209-211?)

505 122mm 2S1 Pl - first 4 were used since 1976 (now 1/78), but in bigger number from 1980s.

506 152mm Dana Pl - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , introduced in 1980 (now 1/77)

Weapons

First I didn't mean to check them, but it appeared in connection with guns - then I started to check ranges...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from gun ranges in the Czech oob it seems, that O/M gun game range = approximate range in km + 190 (13 km for ZiS-3 is 203, 17 km for ML-20 = 207, 27 km for M-46 = 217 etc).

But in Portugal and Bulgarian oob it apparently doesn't fit (I didn't check others): 25pdr (12 km) = 208 (should be 202?), sFH-18 (to be taken for the Czech oob - 13 km) = 212 (should be 203?). In Bulgarian oob #240 105mm leFH-18 (12 km) has 207 (should be 202 - like #191 in Czech oob) and #241 105mm K18 FG (18-21 km) - also 207... If there is really a "+190" rule, I can check more guns in several other oobs.

Back to the Czech weapons:

#112 122mm obr38 FH has too long range 209 - in Russian oob #112 122mm M-30 FH has 202 (same weapon, real range was 11.8 km). Maybe designation should be changed to Czech vz.38S, M38 or international M-30 ("obr" was Soviet abbreviation)?

#113 152mm M18/46 FH - name should be M18/47 in fact, and range was 15.2 km - 205 (now 202) - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/674

#191 105mm M18/49 - name should be M18/40 (if it's German LeFH-18/40) - it's also worth to add "FH"

#220 122mm M1937 FH - name should be M31/37 FG (Soviet field gun obr.31/37 A-19)

#230 85mm M52 FG - too long range 209 - in fact 16,200 m - 206? (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...itankovy-kanon )

#239 152mm ML20 FG - maybe ML-20 GH? (gun-howitzer according to original nomenclature)

Weapons #95 122mm D-74 FG, #240 152mm D-1 FH, #241 76mm L51 obr36 might be replaced with new ones.

That's all as for artillery, I guess.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Supplement:

Weapon 111 152mm D-20 FH - should be changed to 152mm M77 FH used in Dana SP-howitzer. Range is 18.7 km (209?), with base bleed rounds - 20 km (210?).

By the way, I don't know if basic D-20 FH in other oobs should have range 214 - its normal range is 17.4 km, and 24 km only with rocket assisted(?) rounds.

Miscellaneous weapon comments:

06, 07, 08 - correct form is "vz.", not "vz/"

028 RPG-75 - range against moving target is 200 m, but against still target - 300 m (now: 4) http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/21864 (I don't know if it should be changed, just for information).

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - proper designation of AAMG variant was SGMB (for all countries)

218 7.62mm vz59 MMG - is kill 7 justified, higher than water-cooled Maxim (5), SG-43 (6) and PKS from Soviet oob (6)?

BTW: shouldn't Maxim have higher kill ratio than other MGs, since it was able of sustained fire for longer time? Same for Vickers HMG in the British oob (5). As I see, Maxim and Vickers differ from other MMGs in having a longer range (30 vs 24), but is it correct, with the same ammunition? Or is it a matter of heavy mounts? Just a few thoughts...

Regards
Michal

[PN79]

Greetings
- MiG-21PFM - RS-2US -- When it comes to it I can only confirm that there was training with them against ground targets - I don't know if it was planned to use them in combat.
- OT-90M2 - Although there are several sources claiming of having this variant, I have seen only one photo to this date.

and for artillery:
- there should be 100mm vz.53 gun in list of off-map artillery - although it was primarily ATG it was dual purpose weapon like 85mm vz.52
- 122mm M30 howitzer survived atleast till 1990 - not enough D-30 to replace it completely
- btw. 203mm - we had only 2S7 Pion from around 1985 to early 1990s

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PN79

for artillery:
- there should be 100mm vz.53 gun in list of off-map artillery - although it was primarily ATG it was dual purpose weapon like

THERE ALREADY IS ONE.

Please explain why you wrote this when that weapon in that configuation already exists as unit 369.

???

]

Originally Posted by PN79

for artillery:
- btw. 203mm - we had only 2S7 Pion from around 1985 to early 1990s

..and that has already been mentioned in this thread as well. I have quite enough to do with out tracking down duplicate information so if you are going to post to this thread at least read it and check the OOB first please.

Thank you.

Don