Warning: Illegal string offset 'type' in [path]/includes/class_postbit.php(294) : eval()'d code on line 65
OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc - .com.unity Forums
.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

BCT Commander- Save $8.00
winSPWW2- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 15th, 2010, 09:57 AM
Squirrelloid Squirrelloid is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,157
Thanks: 69
Thanked 116 Times in 73 Posts
Squirrelloid is on a distinguished road
Default OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc

Tangent warning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
I am 1 of those newbies(not noobs, please correct that term because the term noob has a very negative implication)
I find this an hilarious quibble, considering 'n00b' is simply 'newbie' spelled in 1337-speak (correctly pronounced as two syllables, n00-b), and the term 'newbie' i think is actually backformed from n00b, at least in its internet use. Arguing one is derogatory and the other isn't is like arguing something spelled in cyrillic is derogatory but when its spelled with roman characters it isn't. Its just a different alphabet. noob is of course just an alternate rendering of n00b in the standard roman alphabet.

All of n00b, noob, and newbie can have derogatory connotations depending on the group, but they're simply the same word spelled in different alphabets. Its just a strange claim that only a subset of them is derogatory.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old February 15th, 2010, 10:18 AM

13lackGu4rd 13lackGu4rd is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 712
Thanks: 5
Thanked 40 Times in 32 Posts
13lackGu4rd is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelloid View Post
Tangent warning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
I am 1 of those newbies(not noobs, please correct that term because the term noob has a very negative implication)
I find this an hilarious quibble, considering 'n00b' is simply 'newbie' spelled in 1337-speak (correctly pronounced as two syllables, n00-b), and the term 'newbie' i think is actually backformed from n00b, at least in its internet use. Arguing one is derogatory and the other isn't is like arguing something spelled in cyrillic is derogatory but when its spelled with roman characters it isn't. Its just a different alphabet. noob is of course just an alternate rendering of n00b in the standard roman alphabet.

All of n00b, noob, and newbie can have derogatory connotations depending on the group, but they're simply the same word spelled in different alphabets. Its just a strange claim that only a subset of them is derogatory.
actually it's pretty different. a newbie is simply a new player. a noob on the other hand doesn't neccessarily have to be a new player, he's more of a "know it all" type who actually doesn't know anything. but because of that he doesn't listen to people who try to help him, via advise, teaching, pointing his mistakes, etc.

so basically a newbie is the "good" type of new player while a "noob", or "n00b" if you wish, is the "bad" type. for example, in Sombre's "how bad is bad" thread, the people he refers to are noobs instead of simply newbies.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old February 15th, 2010, 10:27 AM

thejeff thejeff is offline
General
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,327
Thanks: 4
Thanked 133 Times in 117 Posts
thejeff is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Not stranger than many mainstream derogatory terms, if you look at them linguistically. They're often just shortened slang versions of more acceptable terms.

Usage determines whether something is derogatory, not the derivation of the word.

I also doubt that newbie is backformed from n00b. Newbie dates back well before 1337-speak.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old February 15th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Squirrelloid Squirrelloid is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,157
Thanks: 69
Thanked 116 Times in 73 Posts
Squirrelloid is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelloid View Post
Tangent warning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
I am 1 of those newbies(not noobs, please correct that term because the term noob has a very negative implication)
I find this an hilarious quibble, considering 'n00b' is simply 'newbie' spelled in 1337-speak (correctly pronounced as two syllables, n00-b), and the term 'newbie' i think is actually backformed from n00b, at least in its internet use. Arguing one is derogatory and the other isn't is like arguing something spelled in cyrillic is derogatory but when its spelled with roman characters it isn't. Its just a different alphabet. noob is of course just an alternate rendering of n00b in the standard roman alphabet.

All of n00b, noob, and newbie can have derogatory connotations depending on the group, but they're simply the same word spelled in different alphabets. Its just a strange claim that only a subset of them is derogatory.
actually it's pretty different. a newbie is simply a new player. a noob on the other hand doesn't neccessarily have to be a new player, he's more of a "know it all" type who actually doesn't know anything. but because of that he doesn't listen to people who try to help him, via advise, teaching, pointing his mistakes, etc.

so basically a newbie is the "good" type of new player while a "noob", or "n00b" if you wish, is the "bad" type. for example, in Sombre's "how bad is bad" thread, the people he refers to are noobs instead of simply newbies.
A n00b is just a new-comer (not necessarily player, there are other contexts than games).

I don't find 'n00b' any more derogatory than 'newbie'. Its an alternate spelling of the same word, using a different alphabet. ('noob' is certainly a backformation from the 1337).

I've seen 'newbie' used derogatorily. I've seen n00b used just to mean someone was new with no derogatory connotations. You may choose to be offended by it, but that doesn't make that spelling derogatory on face. I would argue that most communities in which 'n00b' is derogatory, 'newbie' is also derogatory. (The perception of n00bishness being poor is fostered by communities which value 1337ness as the pinnacle of achievement. When being skilled/elite/1337 is the absolute highest value, its opposite will be the lowest value, and hence derogatory).

@thejeff:
Ok, I'd believe it, I just never heard/saw it until after I'd been online, and certainly saw n00b first. (Damn i've been online a long time...)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old February 15th, 2010, 12:57 PM

13lackGu4rd 13lackGu4rd is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 712
Thanks: 5
Thanked 40 Times in 32 Posts
13lackGu4rd is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

well Squirrelloid, the fact that you don't realize that there is a difference beyond mere "spelling" between the 2 terms is your problem. it doesn't make the difference any less real... instead of arguing about it you should perhaps try to understand it.

let me give you another example, a lot less "politically correct". the N word is considered very offensive. however the original term, with the same spelling, simply meant "black" in Latin. however nowadays its usage is only in an offensive manner. a lot of people don't know Latin, and were not aware that it was actually a real word, however their unawareness doesn't make it any less truthful...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old February 15th, 2010, 01:06 PM
Squirrelloid Squirrelloid is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,157
Thanks: 69
Thanked 116 Times in 73 Posts
Squirrelloid is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
well Squirrelloid, the fact that you don't realize that there is a difference beyond mere "spelling" between the 2 terms is your problem. it doesn't make the difference any less real... instead of arguing about it you should perhaps try to understand it.

let me give you another example, a lot less "politically correct". the N word is considered very offensive. however the original term, with the same spelling, simply meant "black" in Latin. however nowadays its usage is only in an offensive manner. a lot of people don't know Latin, and were not aware that it was actually a real word, however their unawareness doesn't make it any less truthful...
First of all, you might want to try actually giving a true example. The 'N word' might be derived from latin 'niger', but its not the same word. Even if it were, you're now talking about a word in english and a word in a different language. n00b is not from a different language, its an alternate spelling of a word in the same language. It'd be like saying 'gray' is offensive but 'grey' is not.

Second, how is your understanding of the word any better than mine? I've seen its use in a multitude of communities over 19 years, and its varied from being an insult to just a general descriptor of skill/familiarity (as has 'newbie' and other spellings, I can't actually think of a community I've been part of that has thought 'newbie' was anything other than an alternate spelling).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old February 15th, 2010, 01:16 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
General
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,327
Thanks: 4
Thanked 133 Times in 117 Posts
thejeff is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Actually, I'll have to retract the history slightly. Newbie and n00b probably came into online use fairly close to the same time, though newbie has offline roots, but came into much more common use on Usenet. I stand by my assumption that n00b came from newbie, not the other way around, mostly because that derivation is straightforward and I can't even imagine where n00b would have come from if not from newbie.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old February 15th, 2010, 01:28 PM
Squirrelloid Squirrelloid is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,157
Thanks: 69
Thanked 116 Times in 73 Posts
Squirrelloid is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff View Post
Actually, I'll have to retract the history slightly. Newbie and n00b probably came into online use fairly close to the same time, though newbie has offline roots, but came into much more common use on Usenet. I stand by my assumption that n00b came from newbie, not the other way around, mostly because that derivation is straightforward and I can't even imagine where n00b would have come from if not from newbie.
Well, given the existence of offline antecedents, I will certainly agree n00b came from newbie. I am agnostic at this point as to which was used first online.

If not for the offline sources for newbie (which I hadn't been familiar with), I could imagine n00b being an original construction in 1337 for 'new person'. I mean, its not like original 1337 constructions are unknown ('boxen').

But that n00b is obviously from newbie doesn't mean its online presence didn't originate with the 1337 spelling, since it seems to formerly have been restricted to military jargon (and not even popularized military jargon like asap, or at least I would have thought I'd have encountered it in that case). Its not like the programming community (from which the 1337 community developed) didn't have a history of appropriating military slang (see fubar -> foobar).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old February 15th, 2010, 01:32 PM

Trumanator Trumanator is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tacoma WA, USA
Posts: 1,314
Thanks: 103
Thanked 72 Times in 50 Posts
Trumanator is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

And the point of this discussion is....?

Lets try not to clog the thread please.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Trumanator For This Useful Post:
  #10  
Old February 15th, 2010, 01:48 PM
Gandalf Parker's Avatar

Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Vacaville, CA, USA
Posts: 13,736
Thanks: 341
Thanked 479 Times in 326 Posts
Gandalf Parker is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk

A basic tenant of anything diplomatic or customer service related is that only those that the term is applied to can say whether or not its offensive. It never really works for people outside of that group to say "you should not be offended by this term". Particularly when the argument is "its just a derivative of" Pick any term for any group thru history if you need examples. Better yet if its one that applies to you. A person can choose to laugh at PC (politically correct) but there is a reason that such thinking exists and gets used. Either choose to honor the request, or dont. But finding it hilarious isnt going to achieve the purpose desired here.

Of course there is always a situation where a person or group proudly takes on a term. But even they usually admit that they have taken a term usually used or taken harshly and owned it. I can think of at least 3 that apply to me in that category.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Gandalf Parker For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.