OOBs way out of whack?

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:
I've been investigating some of the number setting for the weapons in WinSPWW2 and came out with some really odd stuff.

For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

Except that slot one infantry weapons are not designed in the singular or based on one single shot. You'll notice that the MP38/40 has dramatically less range than the 98K. SMG ratings are based on the fact that it has a substantially higher ROF than a bolt-action infantry rifle. The 98K has the exact same stats as the Springfield 1903 (Weapon #236 in OOB12), while the M1 Garand (Weapon #112) has HEK 2 because of its higher ROF.

This is not about pistol and rifle bullets alone. Your interpretation of HEK value is not entirely correct either. It is, perhaps, the most important value for determining kills, and it is the value that determines how well a weapon kills soft targets, but it is not generally based on warhead size, especially with regards to infantry weapons (you can see this throughout the OOBs if you look).

[Deputy]

evan said:

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan

Hi Evan: The HE Kill number is a pretty strange thing that must encompass a good deal of "opinions" and hidden estimates in it. The help file ONLY states "bigger is better". It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge. Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy. The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting. But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life. Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

[Double_Deuce]

Deputy said:
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least.

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

[DRG]

Deputy said:


<snip>
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

[Mobhack]

The Game Guide is the game manual, and can be acessed through the "help" tab of the Game Options programme, by clicking on the "Read The Game Manual" link.

The GG will launch in your browser (it is an HTML document).

The "introduction" section can be scrolled down to (it is the first section of text in the GG), or jumped to, via the links section on the LHS of the screen - it is the very first link. It contains information on the game scale.

Additionally, you can set the game to report ranges in most cases in either hexes, yards, or metres to taste, by toggling the "Show Most Ranges in" button on the game options form's "Misc" tab.

Only SP version 3 at the brigade level of combat, used a 200 metre hex.

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
The help file ONLY states "bigger is better".

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge.

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy.

Really?

The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting.

Agreed.

But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.

[Deputy]

Double_Deuce said:

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

You're right...they're 50 meters . But the fact remains that subguns shouldn't be able to fire accurately or effectively out of the hex they're locates in. How do I know? I own and shoot two Thompsons

[Deputy]

DRG said:

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

I saw that after it was pointed out by someone else. Doesn't change a thing. Subguns should NOT be able to fire further than 50 meters. Do you OWN a subgun? Ever fired one? I own TWO and have fired them both at a shooting range and in a REAL war. And I'm not talking about "virtual" subguns in computer games.

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Really?

Agreed.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.

I admit I was off on the hex sizes, but I maintain that the subgun ranges are still too generous.
High rate of fire in a subgun does NOT equate to more kill potential. Other factors like controllability come into effect. "Spray and pray" may work in the movies and for gangbangers, but for military use it is frowned upon as wasting ammunition. It is NOT taught even in machingune training. It has been repeatedly proven that aimed, rapid semi-auto fire is much more effective at actually killing people than full auto fire out of any handheld weapon.
The subguns is deadly in CERTAIN instances. The Soviets made excellent use of them in house-to-house fighting and close assault combat. But a sungun is NOT a "handy rifle". At ranges beyond 50 meters/yards, it's pretty useless. The 9mm as well as the .45ACp drops rather rapidly the further out it goes. They are PISTOL CARTRIDGES, not rifle cartridges. Again...lots of lead flying in the air is great for suppressive fire, but you need that lead to be ACCURATE to be effecive. The maximum range for the subguns in WinSPWW2 shouldn't be more than the hex they are located in. Beyond that, they are just noisemakers. The weapon that was actually USED for suppressive fire in WW2 was the Browning machinegun or the MG42.
BTW...more Infantry were killed by artillery than ANY other weapon in WW2.

Dep

[pdoktar]

In what war did you fire your two subguns? Considering they are the same Thompsons. I concur with you that a 2.36in bazooka should not be able nominally penetrate Tigers front armor. However many of us have military experience also and have fired enough different military weapons to be able to see that this game has point in it´s HE kill, accuracy, pen and range ratings. Submachine guns are able in real life to somewhat effectively fire for 150meters. However of course their power is truly appreciated below 100meter distances. I myself have fired the 9x19 Suomi SMG and it was much easier to control with short bursts than a 7,62x39 assault rifle when firing even shorter bursts.

Stop BOASTING with YOUR EXPERIENCE and start arguing then you´ll get your commments taken more seriously.