spotting when turning around your units

[francoisD]

hi

i have notice that sometimes when you change the direction of one your unit towards one of the 6 sides of the hexagons, your unit can spot new ennemy unit it did not see in the previous ai's turn (and even in the same direction as it was originally facing).

is this normal?

can somebody explain this to me, and tell me where to find this in the manual?

since this does not cost any point of movement, could this be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?
because now i am doing this for every of my units and this does take quite a bit of (boring) time.

thanks!

[void1984]

Originally Posted by francoisD

is this normal?

Yes, it it.

Originally Posted by francoisD

since this does not cost any point of movement, could this be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?
because now i am doing this for every of my units and this does take quite a bit of (boring) time.

I only do this with scouts and my frontal squads so it's not a problem.

You can do this also after successful rally. It gives you then a new chance to stop the enemy.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by francoisD

hi

i have notice that sometimes when you change the direction of one your unit towards one of the 6 sides of the hexagons, your unit can spot new ennemy unit it did not see in the previous ai's turn (and even in the same direction as it was originally facing).

is this normal?

can somebody explain this to me, and tell me where to find this in the manual?

since this does not cost any point of movement, could this be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?
because now i am doing this for every of my units and this does take quite a bit of (boring) time.

thanks!

Yes - a look in a new direction is a search, and it is free.

The SP games have always been like this, turning costs nil points. Searching a direction is also free. If your tiger turret is facing 180 degrees from a Sherman who is pointing his gun at you, and you fire at him - the tiger turret whips round and gets the shot before the Sherman can reply.

Many players consider it gamey tactics to move a hex, spin round 360 degrees searching face by face, move a hex and repeat.

The game can only deduct whole move points - what is turning a turret a hex dir worth? a hull turn?.

I have long thought there should be some cost for searching and/or turning - or perhaps we could treat a turn as an op-fire trigger event (treat it just as a form of target movement)?. Sometimes let a facing enemy element get first shot if your barrel is facing too far away (90 degrees+?) Something to think about for this autumn's code work.

Andy

[void1984]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The game can only deduct whole move points - what is turning a turret a hex dir worth? a hull turn?.

For infantry it's fine that it's free. A squad in combat tries to watch many directions and it has many men.
I don't like that feature for turretless vehicles (eg. StuH and StuG). Currently they don't suffer enough penalty comparing to tanks with turret.

Originally Posted by Mobhack

I have long thought there should be some cost for searching and/or turning - or perhaps we could treat a turn as an op-fire trigger event (treat it just as a form of target movement)?. Sometimes let a facing enemy element get first shot if your barrel is facing too far away (90 degrees+?) Something to think about for this autumn's code work.

I like your ideas. I think the penalty should be biggest for turretless vehicles and minimal for infantry.

[Marek_Tucan]

But then any turn on movement will cost points as well... would be hard to code that... Maybe penalise turn larger than say 60 degrees only?
Might also change reactions of turretless vehicles to opfire - less quickly turning hulls and Stug's, allowing for better flanking ambushes?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

But then any turn on movement will cost points as well... would be hard to code that... Maybe penalise turn larger than say 60 degrees only?

There is no cumulative count of such turns - so a simple way to skip your suggestion would be to turn one face at a time, several times. Simpler (if I charge) to charge per face changed.
(each separate turn is a look in any case)

The one thing it would severely mess up is that move limit view option that I never use, but some folk do seem to love.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

Might also change reactions of turretless vehicles to opfire - less quickly turning hulls and Stug's, allowing for better flanking ambushes?

That it would do - since a hull turn would cost more points, most likely. Turret turns would still be free (no way to charge < 1 MP as uses integers), but we could introduce something like the present opfire at ATGM teams based on relative gun positioning & experience on a shot opportunity where the target has a line on the turret turnee. Hull turns would be more likely to lose the "quick draw".

Andy

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The game can only deduct whole move points - what is turning a turret a hex dir worth? a hull turn?.

I have long thought there should be some cost for searching and/or turning - or perhaps we could treat a turn as an op-fire trigger event (treat it just as a form of target movement)?. Sometimes let a facing enemy element get first shot if your barrel is facing too far away (90 degrees+?) Something to think about for this autumn's code work.

Andy

Originally Posted by Mobhack

There is no cumulative count of such turns - so a simple way to skip your suggestion would be to turn one face at a time, several times. Simpler (if I charge) to charge per face changed.
(each separate turn is a look in any case)

The one thing it would severely mess up is that move limit view option that I never use, but some folk do seem to love.

That it would do - since a hull turn would cost more points, most likely. Turret turns would still be free (no way to charge < 1 MP as uses integers), but we could introduce something like the present opfire at ATGM teams based on relative gun positioning & experience on a shot opportunity where the target has a line on the turret turnee. Hull turns would be more likely to lose the "quick draw".

Andy

This is very interesting.

If I understand you correctly, the possible changes are:

1. A change in hull facing could trigger op fire.

2. A change in hull facing could cost say 1 move point.

Therefore turret turns would probably be free, so in a tank you could chose to fire from your current hull facing and get the first shot (but perhaps expose weaker hull armour to return fire), or turn to face the enemy (lose 1 mp) and trigger op fire.

Of course Self Propelled Guns would have to pay the price of turning unless they happened to be facing the right direction.

For op-fire, could SP guns (that were facing away) just turn to face the enemy but not shoot for their first op-fire, and if they get a second op-fire they would actually fire?

But then if you engage an SP gun from two different directions it would keep re-facing but not shooting...just thinking out aloud.

Would facing changes cost mp for all units or just AFV? Though you may have to raise the mp for infantry from 6 to 7 if you want to keep them active.

Perhaps units like SP guns and ATk guns should only be able to op-fire in the direction they are facing; don't allow them to swivel except on the player's turn and then it costs 1 mp.

I could see that this would make facing far more important, and more realistic than the current SP situation.

I think it would be well worth sacrificing the 'move limit view' for facing penalties. But perhaps it could be left in as a guide to the maximum possible move if you didn't have to change facing.



Cross

[void1984]

Originally Posted by Cross

Therefore turret turns would probably be free, so in a tank you could chose to fire from your current hull facing and get the first shot (but perhaps expose weaker hull armour to return fire), or turn to face the enemy (lose 1 mp) and trigger op fire.

And it can be done with existing controls. Using 'T' you turn only your turrer, L-click turns whole vehicle.

Originally Posted by Cross

For op-fire, could SP guns (that were facing away) just turn to face the enemy but not shoot for their first op-fire, and if they get a second op-fire they would actually fire?

But then if you engage an SP gun from two different directions it would keep re-facing but not shooting...just thinking out aloud.

So the result would be silly. But maybe it can be limited to only one turn in opponents turn.

Originally Posted by Cross

Would facing changes cost mp for all units or just AFV?

I am strongly convinced that it shouldn't affect infantry. I have seen movies with soldiers in hostile territory and they trying to keep their eyes all around. They can because they have many men, not just one or two view points in the vehicle with many dead fields.

Originally Posted by Cross

Perhaps units like SP guns and ATk guns should only be able to op-fire in the direction they are facing; don't allow them to swivel except on the player's turn and then it costs 1 mp.

I could see that this would make facing far more important, and more realistic than the current SP situation.

It's also an idea.

[JohnHale]

[quote=Mobhack;755569 Hull turns would be more likely to lose the "quick draw".

Andy[/QUOTE]

I think this will bring a new (and welcome) aspect to the game. The limitations of the StuG-type AFV would be recognised.


John

[francoisD]

hi guys

it appears that my initial question digs more deeper in the game that i firstly thought.

i too think that their should be some sort of penalty for turning around your units. perhaps not for infantry troops, but well for the others.

someone can confirm that in the original sp game, your AT guns could fire in the opponent's turn only in a restricted field of view? i believe to be so but i am not sure

francois