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  #1  
Old May 30th, 2006, 05:59 AM

chuckfourth chuckfourth is offline
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Default Paratrooper LMG support squad

Hi All
While were on the topic of paratroopers could I just say that I find the 5 man paratrooper LMG squad an odd formation. Shouldnt it be 3 man and size 0 like the rest of the LMG teams in the game? Rather than the current 5 man size 1 team?
This site gives the 1944 paratrooper platoon as having 3 11 man squads.
Best Regards Chuck.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/..._battalion.htm
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Old June 21st, 2006, 07:32 AM

chuckfourth chuckfourth is offline
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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

Hi All
Just beginning my first few PBEM games and Im currently defending a bridge. I notice that the american paratrooper LMG squad is size 0 rather than the size 1 of the equivelent german unit.
Thanks for your time Chuck.
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Old June 21st, 2006, 09:50 AM

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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

Luftwaffe War Establishment (Kriegsstärkenachweisung) 8121(L) dated 1.5.44 gives the following organization for a rifle platoon in a Fallshirmjägerkompanie:

Zugführer (Platoon Leader) Lt,

Zugtrupp (Platoon HQ section)
1 Zugtruppführer (Sec Ldr)
3 Melder (Messenger)
1 Waffenwart (Armorer)

3 Squads, including in total (for all 3 squads)
3 Gruppenführer (Squad Leader)
3 Stellvertretende Gruppenführer (Deputy Squad Leader)
12 Schützen (Riflemen)
12 MG-Schützen (Machinegunners and assistants)
2 Drivers for 3-ton trucks

So about 34-35 soldiers - I'd say 3x11-man squads each with 2xLMG.
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Old June 21st, 2006, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

when posting TO&E questions, it is best to post in the TO&E sub forum. Also, it is a great help to give the formation numbers as found in Mobhack, and also if discussing units, the number and/or unit class number. Otherwse it can take 10 minutes fiddly searching to find the things.

Generally speaking, if an infantry unit is over 4 men, it does not justify size 0 except in very rare cases. (SFMG groups are of course almost always treated as size 0, as are small AT guns. That is also a design decision).

In this case, it is because it is as I recall from the design decision of maybe 4 years ago, a 5 man team with an LMG. It carries the second LMG of the section, and makes up the numbers to the correct TO&E amount.

Unit 163 in OOB 12, is a 4 man team which is just on the borderline where you can justify size 0 for a team. You could therefore call it either way as a size 0 or size 1, we chose 0 there.

Unit 274 in OOB 16 is 5 men, which is just over the limit to justify size 0. Then, since it is size 1, it does not get the points addition for size 0, of course!, so is cheaper

look at unit 285 in OOB 16, which is a 3 man gun group. It is size 0.

So not a bug in the data, therefore no fix required. It has been that size for 4 or 5 years. Naturally - if you think different (whether the US one should be upped to 1 or the GE one 0), you can Mobhack your OOBs to suit your POV then run the points calculator.

Cheers
Andy
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 07:47 AM

chuckfourth chuckfourth is offline
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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

Hi Mobhack
I think you may have misunderstood me, actually Im not asking for a 5 man size 0 squad Im asking for paratrooper LMG squads of whatever size seems suitable to give them size 0, which would bring them in line with other paratrooper formations.
I think the size 1 five man squad is pretty fragile and probably not worth the money, cheap though it is. To justify this I provided a reference as did GUD showing that partrooper platoons are 30 or so men, not the in-game paratrooper platoon of 45 men. I have been unable to find amything that supports such a large formation but of course I have a very modest library. Even if you add up everyone in GUDs reference and push them into the platoon rather than the more normal coy HQ, you only get 38, which brings you very close to 3 ten men squads and 3 three men (size 0) LMG teams.
I realise that I can mobhack stuff but my point is that the 45 man paratrooper platoon maybe was a mistake and doesnt exist? and that it should be modeled as a 30 or so man platoon. As GUD suggests, 3 two-LMG squads or perhaps 3 one-LMG squads and 3 three men LMG teams.
I think the fix reqired is to change the 45 man platoon to a 30 or so man platoon.
Thanks for your time Chuck.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

What you are actually asking, in a long-winded sort of way, is "why no 44 org Fj co/platoon".

We have only the one Fj co/platoon org, and this is a 45 or so man platoon - as your original link shows in passing [" the original Parachute Company seems to have used a twelve man squad as its foundation, with four Squads per Platoon. By 1944, each Platoon had lost a full Squad"]. That was probably the org we made in game terms 3 10xman gruppe with 3x5 man LMG support teams as the best way to represent the thing way back. probably to fit into the actual planes and gliders as well?. who knows. long time ago.

So - you are actually querying the lack of a 44 org Fj company. We had no knowledge of such an item.

I'll look into this, and see if there is a way to do this within the limited number of unit slots available (maybe by reducing 1944 fj gruppe to 8, and post 44 LMG teams to 3 - size 0 would then be justifiable), and then changing the code for the AI pick for a new formation. and adding [A] formations and so on.

If not feasable, the old formations/units will have to do.

Cheers
Andy
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

OK - the KISS method was simply to terminate the 2 LMG teams that extend past 12/43 at that date, copy to 2 new slots, reduce to 3 men, and size 0. Points remain at 18 for these (crew reduction balanced by size 0).

No need to change formations stuff - after 12/43 you are into the 44 org, with 3 10 man sections and 3 3 man LMG groups, which gives 39 men in the platoon. Which is OK as we are folding the platoon HQ into the units. (3x11 man gruppe, hq of about 6).

Cheers
Andy
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 08:36 AM

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Default Re: Paratrooper LMG support squad

Hi Andy
Not sure if I understand the content of both your posts, and of course I dont know if it would be too expensive in time and unit slots, but if I could make one other suggestion for you to consider....
Maybe it would be possible to just replace the current pre 43 German paratrooper coy structure, with the 'correct' 4 squad platoon plus the 4 small LMG teams and add the extra 4th junkers or glider to the coy when (a) or (g)
Apologies if this is what you have already said in your post. Chuck
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