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  #1  
Old January 20th, 2017, 08:39 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Chinese OOB21 v.2016

I've never touched Nationalist Chinese OOB before, but I've gathered some remarks on a HD for several years, so maybe at least some of them won't be wasted . I'm not going too deep, only a couple of things, easy to correct (or skip).

------

2 T-26 M.33 - picture is M.39 (with sloped armour, not used by the Chinese).
(BTW, M.33 designation is redundant, since it was the only version used, and it wasn't tank's official designation.)
It's hard to find decent photos of Chinese ones (best are below).
http://www.abload.de/img/kjc2x.jpg
http://www.ww2incolor.com/chinese-fo...71035_002.html
http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-94-3..._16?1281204517

From these interesting photos with M3A3: http://dlyakota.ru/61544-tanki-t-26-v-kitae.html it shows, that they survived until 1946 (now ends at 10/42)


3 M3A1 Stuart - should be renamed to M3A3 (pictured), and start later.
According to "Bolt Action: Empires in Flames: The Pacific and the Far East" https://books.google.pl/books?id=-4G...0china&f=false - China got 48 M3A3 in 1943. The same according to Polish article by T. Basarabowicz on Chinese armour (precisely he writes 10/43).
There's no information on any M3 delivered earlier (there are some rumours about M2A4, but no link to reliable source). Generally only M3A3 (and M5A1) are seen on Chinese photos.
Other photo: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...inese_M3A3.jpg

9 M5A1 Stuart - basic wartime model seems M3A3 (pictured BTW). According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart , M5A1 were used after the war (no reference). I believe, that M3A3 should be available since 10/43, and M5A1 since some 1/45 or mid-44.
This one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAHuaihai.jpg seems already captured by the communists.


12 Scout Carrier - doesn't seem credible - it's available from 1934, whereas the British started to produce both carriers and Brens in 1938, and they rather weren't exported before the war (I couldn't find info about any later sale of carriers to China. Maybe in Burma something was given?..).

Same for 133 Bren Carrier (same class) and 802 (APC, will need change in formation)

17 PzKw Ia - there is a photo 16513, with prominent Chinese markings

66,310 M3A1 Scout Tank - photo is M3A3, and it likely should be one (used from 1943 then)

84 Frigate - it should rather be Cruiser (5.5in guns), with proper photo 9377.

182 AT-Rifle (Type 97) - photo is PzB, should be 459

183 AT-Rifle (PTRD) photo is PzB, should be 23151 (or 8843 or 21032 with non-Chinese soldiers)

184 RPG Team - photo is bazooka, should be RPG-6 grenade 351


266 Armrd Truck /MG - here is a photo of an armoured truck used in China. Although according to a description, it's American, but it could possibly be met there, and it's better, than existing French unarmoured Laffly with 25mm gun.
http://www.warwheels.net/ArmoredTruc...provINDEX.html

Maybe a better name would be just "Armoured Truck"? Cannon-armed ones were rather exceptions..

There at the bottom are interesting armoured cars, but I don't know for what use:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...ed+Car+in+WWII
If you'd like to add such AC, there's a perfect icon 2717.

There could be also added Citroen-Kegresse armoured car, of unknown model, used by Wu-Pei-Hu warlord. I assume, that the armament was 37mm Puteaux gun. Polish unit 663 wz.28 AC could serve as a direct pattern. It should look similar to the French car on that page http://derela.republika.pl/wz28.htm - or a photo 29508 could be.


268 White Scout Car - according to T. Basarabowicz's article, they were given among the first US vehicles from 10/41 (now 1/43). Same in a table on this Russian page http://tankfront.ru/allies/china/history.html

273 BA-20 - picture is FAI (side cut-outs at a bottom), could be Soviet 27868.
(however there is an information in the net, that BA-20 were used by China, but without references, while Russian book by Maxim Kolomiets from Front Illustration series doesn't mention that they were used by China - he writes about Mongolia, Romania and other countries instead... It might be too vague to delete, but I'm just letting know. Same for BA-10 and BA-6.)

279 NC-27 - it seems doubtful. Maybe it's better to replace with ordinary FT, with longer Japanese gun, as is on a photo there http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...f=101&t=159782 (of Fengtian army)

283 L3/35 ATR - maybe a better photo is 16064 (Italian one w/Solothurn).
BTW: L3 were Italian Army designations, the Chinese would rather use CV-35 (same for 282,284)

285 T-26a - Russian sources don't mention, that China had twin-turret T-26 - only M.33 (I couldn't find such info in other places neither)

287, 300 VCL M1931/T-37 - name should be just VCL M1931 (it's not Soviet T-37). (I'd call it VCL M1931 Amph or something like that)
Armament should rather be Vickers, not DT.

288 Vickers 6-Ton - China didn't use twin-turret Vickers for sure

289 MHarrington 4TA - "Reportedly China also ordered a quantity; it is not probable that any of these were delivered." http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ma...gton/tank.html
Also T. Basarabowicz and this Russian article http://tankfront.ru/allies/china/history.html say they weren't delivered.

295, 296, 298 M4A1, M4A3, M4A4 - Shermans were used only from late 43, along with M3A3. And M4A4 were surely used from beginning, while I couldn't find info about Chinese M4A1 (no photos with cast armour) and A3.
This one is clearly M4A4 (wheel spacing) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...A_-_196225.jpg

376 Type 97B Te-Ke - photo is MG-armed, gun-armed is 4019 or 3736

It's all about armour, I think.
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  #2  
Old January 21st, 2017, 09:28 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

Just a few minor things concerning guns:

16 37L46 AT-Gun - picture is French 25mm, should be Japanese 17037.
Same for Communist unit 16

45 37L36 AT-Gun - picture is French 25mm, should be Japanese 17037.
Same for Communist 45

46 37L40 AT-Gun - picture should be German
It should be rather standard German Pak 35/36, and supplied from 1936 http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...nese+armaments
Same for Communist 46

If anybody wanted Chinese photo, here's one: http://www.network54.com/Realm/overv...inesePaK35.jpg

49 37L36 AT-Gun - picture is French 25mm, should be probably 17037 (if it is Japanese, but I couldn't find Type 98 37 mm gun, only Type 94 and 1)
Same for Communist 49

62 37L33 AT-Gun - picture is French 25mm, but I don't know what it's supposed to be.

A comprehensive list http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...nese+armaments doesn't indicate other 37mm guns, than German, Japanese and US.

It could be changed to US 37mm M1 gun after 1942, which is lacking now.

104 70mm Cannon - unit 110 has other icon 2108, better for such a light gun (Japanese one has 2109).
Same for Communist 110 (communist 104 has 2108)
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  #3  
Old January 24th, 2017, 10:08 AM

IronDuke99 IronDuke99 is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

Very, very, difficult to say anything with any certainty about Chinese Forces in WWII, other than that they were mostly poorly equipped and the Chinese Communists did next to no fighting against the Japanese.
PS
'couple' = two.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 07:47 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

It's true, that it's hard to find anything - I spent some time trying to gather that info. Now Don has this comfort, that he can apply what he likes, or throw all away Anyway, I had to share it.

As I've said, I'm not checking the artillery (eg. that 75mm PH Battery have too low range to go off map ), but only one thing:

95 75mm Tp 90 FG - much more popular was older Japanese gun Type 38. It's not very likely, that new Japanese guns were captured by the Chinese in so significant number, to become a standard. And Type 38 could be available earlier (info at http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...nese+armaments : ...Many of these weapons were captured during the Sino-Japanese War and employed against their former owners or were subsequently acquired from abandoned stocks after 1945 and used during the Civil War. Smaller quantities of Japanese 75mm Type 41 (Model of 1908) cavalry field guns, Schneider designed 75mm Type 90 (Model of 1930) and 75mm Type 95 (Model of 1935) field guns were also captured. )

Same for unit 124 - battery

Aircraft:

396 Kwangsi 3 - only one was built of Kwangsi Type 3, and only in 1937 (now 1930) - it was obsolete in a beginning. BTW, the photo is something else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liuchow_Kwangsi_Type_3
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/kwangsi3.html
Same for unit 440.

It could be replaced as the earliest aircraft with Waco 240A fighter, keeping the same icon, reportedly capable even of taking two 100 lb bombs http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/1245/267/0#1
https://books.google.pl/books?id=i5W...0china&f=false
If the link to google books doesn't work, I saved the article.

Alternatively, early aircraft were:
- AW 16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstr...itworth_A.W.16 , but used from late 1931
- AW Atlas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_Atlas
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/o/1321/272/0

399 V-92C Corsair - photo in Chinese markings:
http://celticowboy.com/corsair_china.jpg (now it's Siamese)

402 Type 97 Ki-27 - very little chance, that the Chinese captured(?) a significant number of newest Japanese fighters. One is known to be captured only in 1942: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/1017/10/0

It might be replaced eg. with Curtiss Hawk 75M, used from late 38
Armament was probably 4 MGs and possibly bombs.
photos: http://worldofwarplanes.ru/dcont/fb/...FIX=/dcont/fb/ or http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hkEP181-77...monstrator.png

Also, Dewoitine D.510 were used, with 20mm gun and 2 MGs since 1938

410 Type 24 I-16 - Chinese markings:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...054da73187.jpg
I-16 type 17/24 with 20mm guns were used only from late 1939 (8/39?)
Earlier there were I-16 Type 5 with 2 MGs, later 4MGs

413 P-39 Aircobra - picture is P-63. But were P-39 used by the Chinese at all?... I can't find any drawing nor info.

That's rather all...
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Old January 27th, 2017, 08:43 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

Some more info on aircraft only.

401 Gladiator IIA - Gladiator I were bought (not IIA) and only in 1/38 they were assembled and ready (now 6/37), according to a Polish article on fighters in China (ordered in 8/37).

An important aircraft, used since 1933, was Hawk II
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/hawk_china.htm - and it reportedly could carry bombs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_F11C_Goshawk
Best photo I could find is here http://hartmann.valka.cz/panzergener...id=146&lang=en

There was also Hawk III, with retracting undercarriage, but it might be not much difference from Hawk II, while it's available later.

406 Polikarpv I-152 - correct designation is I-15 bis. It could even carry 2x50kg bombs.

As for 413, searching of P39 Airacobra + China in google shows no results - while there always can be found color drawings of other Chinese aircraft... Unless this is US air support.

418, 419 P-38 Lightning - the Chinese had some P-38, but a positive information is only about reconnaissance F-5s http://wpalette.com/en/pictures/56780
Osprey - Aircam Aviation Series n°10 - LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTNING IN USAAF-FRENCH-ITALIAN-CHINESE NATIONALIST SERVICE unfortunately doesn't clear things at all, apart from providing photos of F-5s.
If they are American Lightnings, they appeared into China-Burma theatre in 9/43 only, according to Osprey.

433 B-25b Mitchell - photo is late US gunship version. A nice Chinese is http://www.sfahistory.org/ChineseB25.jpg

This time that's all.
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  #6  
Old February 4th, 2017, 07:23 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

...I know I promised, but in a meantime I've found a great book "A History of Chinese Aviation - Encyclopedia of Aircraft and Aviation in China until 1949".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
An important aircraft, used since 1933, was Hawk II
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/hawk_china.htm - and it reportedly could carry bombs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_F11C_Goshawk
Best photo I could find is here http://hartmann.valka.cz/panzergener...id=146&lang=en
Strangely, the author calls it Hawk I, but it is commonly referred elsewhere as Hawk II. First delivered in 3/33 and used until around 1940. Icon 844 fits quite well (He 66/Hs 123), or here is an upper view: http://rsmodels.cz/galerie/produkty/...avd2_large.jpg and line drawing http://www.aviapress.com/magaz/avv/avv200704_2.jpg

Quote:
402 Type 97 Ki-27 - very little chance, that the Chinese captured(?) a significant number of newest Japanese fighters. One is known to be captured only in 1942: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/1017/10/0

It might be replaced eg. with Curtiss Hawk 75M, used from late 38
Definitely they weren't used in any significant number - the book doesn't mention any, apart from Manchukuo. Icon 847 looks good for Hawk 75 as well.

The Chinese used also quite a number of rare birds, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_P-66_Vanguard and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_P-43_Lancer which both could also share the same icon, but they were strafers, used from around mid-42 only, so they are probably not worthy to bother.

Quote:
As for 413, searching of P39 Airacobra + China in google shows no results - while there always can be found color drawings of other Chinese aircraft... Unless this is US air support.

418, 419 P-38 Lightning - the Chinese had some P-38, but a positive information is only about reconnaissance F-5s...
Indeed, P-39 definitively weren't used by the Chinese, and as for Lightings, only F-5 were delivered from late 1944 (AFAIK reconnaissance variants were unarmed).

Rest in order of appearance:

397 Douglas O-2MC - first delivered in 6/30 (now 6/32). Alternative heavier bomb load 2 x 120lb described in action (book p.115). Used also after Japanese attack in 6/37, until some 1939.

398 Breda Ba.27 - delivered in early 1935 (now 6/36). Already in 1937 withdrawn for training.

399,400 V-92C Corsair - V-92C were delivered only in mid-34 (now 6/32). Similar V-65C "New" Corsairs were delivered from the end of 1933, so they might be named just Vought Corsair. However, there was also O2U-1D "Old" Corsair used from 1/30, with weaker engine (425 vs 600 hp) (text attached). I don't know what was a practical difference, so it might be just made one aircraft, from 1/30. Maybe old Corsair should carry only light bombs - while New Corsair carried in action 2 x 120lb, as described in a book (unit 400 now has 1x110 lb).
I'll attach a photo, and here's another http://celticowboy.com/corsair_china.jpg (now it has clear Siamese markings).

Old Corsair could be the earliest aircraft, after removal of wrong 396 Kwangsi 3. Or there could be added Breguet 14, which was the most typical light bomber of different Chinese air forces until the end of 1920s (eg. Thai unit 302 with icon 837 of O-2MC). Typical WW1 era bomb load of Bre 14 was 32 x 8kg or 16 x 20kg or 16(8?) x 40kg, I don't know about heavier bombs.

Old Corsair could be also used as an AOP aircraft from 1/30, instead of 440 Kwangsi 3

403 Fiat Cr.32 - weren't listed as operational by 10/40 (now 7/41)

404 Boeing P-26 - precisely, Boeing 281 export model. A nice Chinese picture attached.

405 Heinkel He 66CH - it seems, that it didn't exist: "Twelve were allegedly ordered in July 1934, but not delivered." Information, that a second order for 12 was fulfilled by sending ex-Lufwaffe He 50 "is pure fiction". (text attached)

407,415 A-12 Shrike - known just as Curtiss Shrike (Model 60). A cool photo http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls...p3pqo1_500.jpg - possibly American, but the rudder looks very Chinese-like as well

409 Henschel Hs-123 - were available only from 4/38 (now 4/36 - text attached)

412 Type 97 Ki-30 - captured(?) Ki-30 were by no means standard bombers - the book even doesn't mention any. On the other hand, the icon 845 would be ideal for Vultee V-11 (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/aww2/a19/a19-1.gif) - 30 were ordered and operational from 1/38, being one of typical Chinese modern bombers. Used until around 1940.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_V-11 it carried 1080 lbs of bombs, had a crew of 3 and max speed 370 km/h (although Chinese ones had 1000 hp instead of 1200 hp engine). It isn't clear, if they had the same armament of 4 MGs.

Same for 429 Type 97 Ki-30 level bomber.

Also, a cool monoplane bomber was Northrop 2E Gamma - 49 delivered in a course of 1934
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1057/...948e6b2d84.jpg
http://i.guancha.cn/News/2013/8/7/63...6077964475.jpg
upper view http://www.skytamer.com/1.2/Northrop...C-Vol1p216.jpg
I have no exact specs, but according to Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/a17.html Chinese 2E had 725 kg of bombs, 4 MGs ("or according to other sources 2") and 710 HP engine. A closer model 2C (XA-16) with 925 hp engine carried 500kg of bombs developed 341 km/h http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/a13.html


414 P-51 Mustang - delivered from 12/44 (now 3/44 - text attached)

Level bombers:

428 Fiat Br.3 - available only from late 1932 (now 1/30). It could take in a heavier variant 6 x 250lb or 2 x 500lb bombs (confirmed in a book). Weren't operational by 6/37 (now 12/40 - it could stay until advent of 435 Martin 139 in mid-37, or there could be added Northrop Gamma as level bomber as well).

The earliest level bomber could be Breguet 14.

431 Fiat Br.20 - only one is known to have been captured

432 SB-2 - it has clearly Spanish markings, I'm attaching Chinese ones.

433 B-25b Mitchell - there were used D,H,J models, operationally from 1943 (now 6/42) (text attached)

434 DB-3 - delivered already in 6/39 (now 1/40). Weren't operational in 11/41.

435 Martin 139W - delivered already in mid-37 (now 6/38)

436 Heinkel 111B-2 - a designation was He 111K (export version of 111A). Arrived in 8/36 (now 7/37).

437 Douglas A-20 - they were to be delivered under lend-lease, but these plans were cancelled.

It could be replaced with A29 Hudson, used from 8/42, but it had quite lousy bomb load (340 kg according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Hudson) - the icon could do.

Right after the war in 1945 B-24M bombers were received. Also, after the war there were used a number of Japanese Ki-48.

I don't plan any further digging
Attached Files
File Type: zip Chinese_aircraft.zip (1.71 MB, 24 views)
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  #7  
Old February 5th, 2017, 08:38 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Chinese OOB21 v.2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
404 Boeing P-26 - precisely, Boeing 281 export model. A nice Chinese picture attached.
There is an unused Chinese photo already 337
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