.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

BCT Commander- Save $8.00
winSPWW2- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 12th, 2009, 06:45 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,133
Thanks: 25
Thanked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Omnirizon is on a distinguished road
Default OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

...We tried that Neo, you all died.

just as the Architect tells Neo in the sequel to the Matrix, NetLogo models predict that in a perfect world, everything dies.

* go to: http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/
* download NetLogo
* click on 'File' then 'Models Library'
* open the 'Biology' folder
* choose the 'Wolf-Sheep Predation' model
* set grass growth time to 0 (ie. infinite resources).
* run.
* everything dies.

basically, with infinite resources, the wolf population reaches a critical mass such that wolves are able to eat sheep faster than sheep can reproduce, and once all the sheep are dead the wolves die. Only the grass grows on.

Even with sheep reproduction rate at max, and wolf reproduction rate at minimum, this happens; it just takes longer. This is because there is never hunger to kill off excess wolves, and so they just continue to populate until they can eat sheep quicker than sheep can breed.

Ironically, it is limits on sheep's resources that saves their own lives.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Omnirizon For This Useful Post:
  #2  
Old October 12th, 2009, 06:53 PM

Illuminated One Illuminated One is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In Ulm und um Ulm herum
Posts: 787
Thanks: 133
Thanked 78 Times in 46 Posts
Illuminated One is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

A perfect world has no wolves.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 12th, 2009, 06:56 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,133
Thanks: 25
Thanked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Omnirizon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

that wouldn't be a perfect world for wolves then :P

also, there get to be so many sheep that the time it takes the computer to process all the sheep will approach infinity, reflecting what happens whenever anything can reproduce unchecked: it gets really croweded, and that's no fun for anyone.

Last edited by Ballbarian; October 12th, 2009 at 07:56 PM.. Reason: Removed profanity.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 12th, 2009, 07:14 PM

Illuminated One Illuminated One is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In Ulm und um Ulm herum
Posts: 787
Thanks: 133
Thanked 78 Times in 46 Posts
Illuminated One is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

No seriously, you can't define a "perfect world" as one with only unlimited grass growth etc.

If you are going at the Gnostic/Theodizee (how can god exist&be good&be allmighty when there is suffering?), which the Matrix is imo about (I mean is there a difference if reality is governed by lines of code or freaky physical laws? The core seems to be the feeling that the world is run by a unconcerned or even malevolent power)

The perfect world is where no suffering exists. So there are no predators, diseases or whatever that might cause a sheep to feel bad, probably it wouldn't even need grass so sheep can't get hungry. (*)
You can argue that such a world can not exist since suffering is a necessity of life and this is the best world possible. But I seriously doubt that this world would fall apart if it was only slightly better (like for example I hadn't stubbed my toe just now). Anyone who wants to solve the Theodizee should prove that this world couldn't exist were it not for my pain.


(*) This world has to be designed from the goal of course. Every problem that might there be with unlimited sheep or whatever has to be treated as a problem already solved by the architect.
It's just an hypothetical idea after all
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 12th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Tolkien's Avatar

Tolkien Tolkien is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 401
Thanks: 15
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Tolkien is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

Silly Omni. If it were really an infinite amount of sheep, having an infinite amount of wolves would mean absolutely nothing. Yay for theoretical math!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 12th, 2009, 08:46 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,133
Thanks: 25
Thanked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Omnirizon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolkien View Post
Silly Omni. If it were really an infinite amount of sheep, having an infinite amount of wolves would mean absolutely nothing. Yay for theoretical math!
yest but they are countably infinite, and since with infinite resources there is no way for wolves to die (from hunger of lack of sheep), only sheep can die (by being eaten by wolves). so eventually, wolf population will reach the critical mass needed to kill sheep quicker than they can breed.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 12th, 2009, 10:25 PM
Tolkien's Avatar

Tolkien Tolkien is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 401
Thanks: 15
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Tolkien is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

But would not wolves eventually die infinitely due to old age? Even if this were not the case, how can something possibly be countably infinite, when infinite is by definition uncountable?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 13th, 2009, 09:08 AM

Agema Agema is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 792
Thanks: 28
Thanked 45 Times in 31 Posts
Agema is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnirizon View Post
basically, with infinite resources...
In other words, it's not the real world, then.

Obvious issues:

If sheep become sufficiently scarce, wolves have trouble finding them. Consequently, wolves will end up hungry: firstly they'll end up fighting other wolves for hunting territory and effectively cull themselves, or as they starve become unable to chase sheep effectively and die anyway.

Furthermore, you have to imagine population migration. Imagine a two-province island. The wolves eat all the sheep in one province, and either starve or move to the other sector. Either way, that sector becomes wolf-free. Surviving sheep from the second sector migrate into the wolf-free sector and flourish, and when the wolves realise the sheep are back in the sector they cleared out, they move back in, and so they go back and forth.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 13th, 2009, 11:57 AM
lch's Avatar

lch lch is offline
General
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: R'lyeh
Posts: 3,861
Thanks: 144
Thanked 403 Times in 176 Posts
lch is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

I dream of a perfect world of grass. And for grass.
__________________
Come to the Dom3 Wiki and help us to build the biggest Dominions-centered knowledge base on the net.
Visit my personal user page there, too!
Pretender file password recovery
Emergency comic relief
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 13th, 2009, 01:48 PM
vfb's Avatar

vfb vfb is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Japan
Posts: 3,691
Thanks: 269
Thanked 397 Times in 200 Posts
vfb is on a distinguished road
Default Re: OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

Clever sheep would not set their reproduction rate to max, they would also set their own growth time to zero. Then you get infinite grass, infinite sheep, and a whole lot of happy wolves.
__________________
Whether he submitted the post, or whether he did not, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed— would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper— the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever.
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.