Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by wulfir

I'm a bit confused as to the actual layout of the game map.

Basically do you want a 200x160 urban map based on Thiskinvali or a map encompassing most of Ossetia..., shrunk to fit 200x160 size...

A 200x160 urban map based on Tskhinvali. The city is anywhere from 7 to 12 kilometers, depending on how one measures the area, whereas the map is 80 kilometers, so still plenty of room for flanking, manuevering, arty placement, etc.




If you have Google Earth installed, you can get very good images of the area.

[Snipey]

Sorry about not posting this earlier, RL was really insane, but since Monday, I'm on a three week break. Don't know if I'll be gone for one of these three weeks on a field trip or not, but I managed to finish parts of the ORBAT, which is scaled 1 to 10

Russia + Ossetia:

1 Mechanised Infantry Battalion (501 men) to represent the 10 mech inf battalions, (2 from the 693rd, 2 from the 503rd, 1 from the 135th, 2 from the 70th, 2 from the 71st, and the first Ossetian mech inf bn. The battalion starts out on the Russian side, relatively close to the edge.

1 Regular Infantry Company with support(150 men) to represent the Peacekeeping Battalions of Russia (from 135th) and North Ossetia (nicknamed Alania in honor of the Alans), (1,000 men total) and the 1st Ossetian foot battalion (500 men). These units will start inside the city of Tskhinvali.

1 Composite Arty Bn (147 men) to represent the crews of the 136 arty guns, 38 rocket launchers. There are 32 MSTA-S, 80 Akatsiya (the ones with CG capability,) 12 Gvozdika, 12 D-30, 30 BM-21 Grads, 4 Smerch (BM-30) and 4 Uragan rocket launchers (BM-27). To represent all this, I am going to use 3 MSTA-S (15 men), 8 Akatsiya (32 men), 1 Gvozdika (4 men), 1 D-30 with MT-LB (10 men), 3 BM-21 (15 men) and 1 BM-30 (6 men). That's 17 guns and rocket launchers. That's 17 total, so I am going to give them 1 company (12 guns) and 1 battery (4 guns) support units, meaning 4 resupply trucks (8 men), 4 med trucks (8 men), 4 arty observers (24 men), (FOOs) 1 BMP KSh (9 men) and 1 Gaz-66 (26 men) truck with 24 infantry. My earlier gun estimate was incorrect. If anyone wants to, I can explain where all the arty came from.

1 Composite Tank Co (72 men) to represent 5 tank battalions /10. The Russians, (according to US satellite data, and this figure is corroborated by other research,) had 150 tanks. 10 T-55, 29 T-62, 81 T-72B, and 30 T-72BM. Representing this is easy: T-55 (starts inside the city), 3 T-62, 8 T-72B, 3 T-72BMs, with 46 tankers, as T-55 has 4, rest have 3. BMP-1KSh (9 men), BTR-80 (9 men), 2 MT-LB suppliers (4 men) and 2 med trucks (4 men). Tank battalions also have repair units, but these do not participate in battles.

1 Recon Company (115 men) to represent 11 recon companies who fought.

1 Communications Platoon (27 men) which can be represented by 3 BMP-1KSh, with mech inf.

1 Engineering Platoon (26 men) to represent the engineers who fought, which is basically an Engineer Platoon (24 men) on Gaz-66 truck.

Vostok-Zapad Platoon (33 men) they had 2 companies, so 1 platoon sums it up nicely

3 SpetzNaz Groups (137 men) Russians had about 1,000-1,200 SpN, and Ossetians had about an additional 300-350. Data on SpN is virtually impossible to get, but they came from the 10th and 22nd SpN brigades. Structure that was used is classified, so I figured I'd just use the groups found in the game. Additionally, 1 group starts in the city, and 2 other groups get a total of 10 BTR-80s. A group is 39 men, so three groups are 117 men, and BRT-80s have 2 drivers per car.

VDV Groups totaling 140 men I am still looking for VDV companies that might fit a structure similar to the one used in the ORBAT.

Militia 110 men Roughly 1,100 fought in South Ossetia's Volunteer Militia. Like any militia, some of these units were quite good, while others were inexperienced. I'm still trying to figure out the structure that I want to use here.

Other units possible, but unlikely They were additional supply units, but I figure we have enough supply and medical units as it is.

Totals: 1458 men


Georgian ORBAT:

1 Infantry Battalion (591 men) to represent forces of the 11th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 41st, 42nd, 43rd.

1 Infantry Company with better exp (169 men) to represent the 53rd (mostly mercs) and Naval Battalions.

Supporting units for the Bn and the Co

Arty Bn (slightly under 371 men) to represent 4 Arty Bns, and the Joint Arty BDE. Georgians had 72 D-30, 12 120-MM mortars, (assigned to arty bns not inf bns,) 11 MSTA-B, 12 Akatsiya, 24 Dana, 6 Pion, 16 BM-21 Grad, 12 GradLar, 8 RM-70, 2 BM-27. To represent this, I have 7 D-30, 1 MSTA-B, 1 Akatsiya, 2 Dana, 1 Pion, 2 BM-21 Grad, 1 GradLar, 1 RM-70.

Composite Tank-Mech Co (roughly 300 men) Georgia combined a reenforced mechanised infantry company with a tank battalion. Aside from four of these units, they also had a joint tank battalion of 60 tanks. The Georgian Tanks: 30 T-72 SIM-I, 60 Czech T-72s, 75 Ukrainian T-72s, 15 T-55s, represented by 3 T-72 SIM-I, 6 C T-72, 8 Ukr T-72, and 1 T-55. Additionally the unit has 2 mechanised infantry platoons. I'm still working on this.

Recon Co 101 men

Comms Pl And Eng Pl same as Russia's, just less experienced, which is already modified by ORBATs.

Special Forces Co (less than 151 men)

Militia - 200 men Like Ossetia, Georgia also had conscripted militia units, but their overall morale was lower than that of their Ossetian counterparts, as they weren't fighting inside their capital city.

Other units possible, but unlikely, total force will be between 1,500 - 1,800 men and I'm still working on parts of it. What do you guys think of it so far? BTW, how is the map coming?

[Hermit]

Looking good so far. Nice work on the scaling. Did you leave out the 120mm mortar from the Georgian side arty on purpose, or was that an oversight?

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by Hermit

Looking good so far. Nice work on the scaling. Did you leave out the 120mm mortar from the Georgian side arty on purpose, or was that an oversight?

Thank you

That was an oversight. I was actually wondering what to do with the Georgian 120mm mortar. 12 would be scaled down to 1, but I am able to get everything else to operational strength. Here, the OS would be 2. So I was wondering if I should have 2 120mm mortars for Georgia or 1. What do you guys think?

Also, this might turn out to be a good battle, and we might expand this to a campaign featuring the entire war, where the battle map we are using for the battle will be the map where most of the action takes place. For this battle, the number of turns is going to be the equivalent of daylight hours that Tskhinvali receives.

There's also no point in doing the Abkhaz campaign, because there it was just overkill. The Abkhaz Army of 5,000 could've taken 3,000-4,000 Georgians in the area. But they also had just under 9,000 Russians, and around 2,000 militia. Additionally no Georgian units in Abkhazia even came close to VDV and SpN capabilities. Most of the Georgian Army changed to civilian clothes, (ok lol) surrendered their weapons to the Russians, (only actual requirement to leave,) and left the area. There were several minor engagements, such as the inept Georgian ambush of the VDV column, (no one was killed), the initial Abkhaz charge, (1 Abkhaz killed, 2 wounded and 2 Georgians killed, 1 wounded,) etc. In case the Georgians managed to blow up the Roki Tunnel, or capture Tskhinvali, the Russians would've made an attack from Abkhazia to liberate Ossetia. The forces assigned to hold Georgian positions were woefully outmatched. On top of everything, Russian SU-25s and sometimes SU-24s were quite effective.

[Hermit]

I think ignoring 12 mortars of that size would be more significant than adding the 2nd tube that's part of a single unit in the game. I don't think the game effect of the extra tube would be significant, since its still only one plottable barrage. Anyone feel differently?

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by Hermit

I think ignoring 12 mortars of that size would be more significant than adding the 2nd tube that's part of a single unit in the game. I don't think the game effect of the extra tube would be significant, since its still only one plottable barrage. Anyone feel differently?

Well I agree with you, and I think most do as well, judging by their silence. And now we can easily compute the totals for the Georgian Arty Bn. We know that it had 371 men, 18 D-30, 12 120mm mortars and 4 Shilkas. That means that there are 180 men for D-30s, 48 men for mortars and 16 men for Shilkas, or 244 on guns and 127 in support. Considering that we are replacing the guns with MSTA-B (8 men), Akatsiya (4 men), 7 D-30 (70 men), 2 Dana (10 men), Pion (7 men), 2 BM-21 Grad, GradLar, RM-70 (20 men) and 2 120mm mortars (8 men), for a total of 127 men, (provided I didn't mess up on any of my numbers,) and maybe I'll carry over 16 men from Shilkas, I haven't decided what to do with AA Guns yet. Taking into account that we are using 18 guns, instead of 30, the support units will also be less. Which should be a good thing, as we don't want to overcrowd the battlefield.

[Snipey]

I thought I'd just give a quick example of how I do research for the ORBAT. For now, I'll just focus on tanks, which was a popular theme early on in the war. As I was watching the war on interfax.ru, (.ru had more info than interfax.com), and they separated facts from their own opinions, as well as Googling massively, I found the tank numbers ranging from 120 to 1,200 for Russia, (now we know it's 150) and from 30 to 400 for Georgia, (now we know it's 180).

At one point in time, some intelligence officers disgusted by the mass media coverage on both sides, (no one is actually sure if it was 1 or 100, as they disguised IPs and stuff (I'm not a techie,) when they posted). What did they post? Georgia's entire ORBAT. This was instantaneously copied by numerous people wanting to know the truth, including yours truly. I quickly referenced the number of tanks presented in the ORBAT, 210 (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th infantry regiments with 150 total, 30 apiece, and the joint tank battalion, 60 tanks. The 5th's tanks were incomplete, and the 5th's tanks did not participate in the war.

This was cross-referenced with the initial number of tanks left by the USSR in Georgia, (31 T-72s), roughly 30 of which were later upgrade by Israelis to T-72 SIM-I. The purchases, (thank you Jane's Magazine,) were 70 from the Czech Republic and 90 from Ukraine. (After the war, Georgia bought more tanks from Ukraine; these shouldn't be mixed it with the ones used in the war.)

So that's 191 tanks. Georgia also had at least 40 T-55s, out of which at least 10-20 were used. A third match can be seen by the massive destruction of Georgian tanks, and Georgia's ability to rebuild them to 4 tank batallion.

The Russians did not make a big secret out of which units fought. They listed the 503rd, 693rd and 135th, the latter recently added to the 58th Army, as participants; Russian newspapers praised the performance of the 141st separate tank battalion, (under 58th, but with no regimental oversight). Each had roughly 30 tanks, T-72, with the 131st having 30 T-72BMs, and with less beauracracy, they maintained their tanks better.

Ossetia had 15 tanks, 10 T-55s, (used for ambushing Georgian T-72s trying to take over Tskhinvali,) and 5 T-72s, which merged with the Russian tanks. The Russians also pointed out that 29 T-62s from the 70th Brigade of the 42nd Division took part.

In order to quell panic, "On Noes, Ze Russians Are Coming to Atlanta with 1,200 tanks!", US satellite data report was released, stating that 150 Russo-Osetian tanks fought. Later the report was pulled from the web. Damn, I should've ctrl-alt-prntscrned it. Yes, CNN's coverage of the war actually caused massive panic in Tbilisi. In the confusion, some of the reporters, doing false reporteing were shot at. Whoopsie. Ahh the unintended effects of bull****ting, aren't they hilarious?

The Russians initially claimed only introducing 120 tanks. However, the US Satellite imagery included Ossetian tanks. Keep in mind that Ossetian tanks were only hidden on the eve of the war, and kept at base prior to that. So the number of tanks became 135-150. And then my math skills kicked in. 150/135 - 15 (Ossetian tanks) = 135/120 - 29 (T-69s) = 106/91 - 30 (T-72BMs) = 76/61 for three Russian Battalions, which have 90 tanks total. While Russian maintance isn't 100%, stating that 1/3rd of all Russian tanks are unprepared would be simply true. Now the 150 number may not be superbly accurate, it might have very well been 148 or 152, but the 150 figure is definetely closer to the truth than 135, or any other number of tanks that we've heard.

I hope this clears up how I do the research, so that you can see if I made any errors, they were unintentional, and most likely the result of posting after partying, or a full day of research/work, which ironically leave me in the same condition. "No Officer, I'm not drunk, I had a final in the morning though."