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  #911  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT:

The Star Trek Mod is a mod of SPACE EMPIRES IV therefore it must follow the physics of this game. The Star Trek Mod is not a STAND ALONE GAME. It is limited to the physics and restrictions of SE IV, thereby many elements of the mod that would be considered as Star Trek Cannon, cannot apply. IE true warp drive, ship sizes, weapons, and star trek acting AI. Albeit I have tried, with the help of many fine people, to simulate as well as we can, a true star trek environment for our game play pleasure.
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  #912  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Fuel and Range

Here is my new proposed Supply Useage / Generation Model for
the mod based upon an earlier post that outlined the problem
very well.


Code:

Level = Tech level
Move = Movement bonus
Uses = Amount of supplies used per move
NacT x2 = Nacelle Total Times 2 (Because two warp nacelles are required.)
NacT = Nacelle Total
CombT = Combined Total of Warp Core and Nacelle supply useage per move.
Speed = How many moves total
PerTurn = Total Supply useage per turn mulitplied by speed and CombT.
Store = How much supplies each warp core stores.
Dist = Distance in squars
Max = Maximum components allowed
Gen = Supply Generation per turn
TPT = Total Per Turn



Current Model
Code:

Warp Nacelle
Level Move Uses NacT X2

I 1st 40 80
II 2st 40 80
III 3st 40 80
IV 4st 40 80
V 5st 40 80




Code:
Warp Core 
Level Move Uses NacT CombT Speed PerTurn Store
I 1b 20 80 100 2 200 700
II 1b 20 80 100 3 300 800
III 2b 30 80 110 4 440 850
IV 2b 40 80 120 5 520 900
V 3b 50 80 130 6 780 1000
VI 3b 40 80 120 6 720 1050
VII 4b 30 80 110 8 880 1100
VIII 4b 30 80 110 8 880 1150
IX 5b 20 80 100 10 1000 1200
X 5b 20 80 100 10 1000 1300

I 6b 20 80 100 11 1100 1400
II 7b 20 80 100 12 1200 1450
III 8b 20 80 100 13 1300 1500



What I propose is to change the amount of supplies each WC can store:

Code:
Warp Core 
Level Move Uses NacT CombT Speed PerTurn Store Dist**
I 1b 20 80 100 2 200 600 6
II 1b 20 80 100 3 300 900 9
III 2b 30 80 110 4 440 1320 12
IV 2b 40 80 120 5 520 1560 15
V 3b 50 80 130 6 780 2340 18
VI 3b 40 80 120 6 720 2160 18
VII 4b 30 80 110 8 880 2640 24
VIII 4b 30 80 110 8 880 3520 24
IX 5b 20 80 100 10 1000 4000 30
X 5b 20 80 100 10 1000 5000 30

I 6b 20 80 100 11 1100 5500 33
II 7b 20 80 100 12 1200 6000 36
III 8b 20 80 100 13 1300 6500 39



** (Estimated based on no supply generation)
The proposed changes to the supply use / generation system would be that each ship would have 3 full turns of supplies and the ability to generate about 3/5th of there needed supplies each turn giving a slight bonus to the lower warp cores to help the AI out. So if a ship keeps moving it will run its supplies down eventually, but pausing for a turn or two will rengerate supplies.

Bussard Collectors and Ram scoops currently contribute the following amount of supplies per turn.

Code:

Bussard Collectors
Level Max Gen TPT
I 4 50 200
II 4 60 240
III 4 70 280

Ram Scoop I
Level Max Gen TPT
I 2 140 280
II 2 160 320
III 2 180 360



Proposed changes to Bussard Collectors and Ram Scoops.
1. Change tech requirement to Warp Core - Supply Tech will be tied into Warp Core
2. Change the supply generation per turn.
3. Added a Level IV and X to Bussard Collectors
4. Increase Ram Scoop Max from 2 to 4
5. Or Consider Making Ram Scoop a seperate component that can combine with Bussard Collectors.
6. Or Consider Adding a MOUNT - Name it the Ram Scoop Mount - and remove the components Ram Scoop.

Code:

Bussard Collectors (For the Purpose of this model Ram Scoop Is figured In and Out)
Level Max Gen TPT Warp Tech Lev
I 4 40 180 I - Beginning Tech
II 4 70 280 Warp Technology II
III 4 90 360 Warp Technology III
IV 4 115 460 Warp Technology IV
V 4 160 640 Warp Technology V - VI

Proposed New Levels (Not using Ram Scoop)
VI 4 180 720 Warp Technology VII - VIII
VII 4 195 780 Warp Technology IX - X
VIII 4 250 1000 Adv Warp Technology I
IX 4 260 1040 Adv Warp Technology II
X 4 280 1120 Adv Warp Technology III

Ram Scoop (Max increased to 4 - USING Ram Scoop and not Proposed new levels above)
Level Max Gen TPT
I 4 195 780 Warp Technology IX - X
II 4 230 1040 Adv Warp Technology II
III 4 280 1220 Adv Warp Technology III



The Ram Scoop Mount - Could simply just be used to give a 2x supply bonus for all levels and we would simply make the Max for all Bussard Collectors 2 instead of 4 because with the Mount they would be mulitplied 2x = 4 any ways.

Also we could reverse the names making the Ram Scoop the Bussard Collector. Sounds better to me.

What are your thoughts?
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  #913  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 03:01 PM

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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

Quote:
Atrocities said:
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT:

The Star Trek Mod is a mod of SPACE EMPIRES IV therefore it must follow the physics of this game. The Star Trek Mod is not a STAND ALONE GAME. It is limited to the physics and restrictions of SE IV, thereby many elements of the mod that would be considered as Star Trek Cannon, cannot apply. IE true warp drive, ship sizes, weapons, and star trek acting AI. Albeit I have tried, with the help of many fine people, to simulate as well as we can, a true star trek environment for our game play pleasure.
Don't tell me people have been complaining that the mod isn't "canon" again?!? That's just sad.

As for the proposed change of names (making the Ram Scoop the Bussard Collector) sounds good to me.
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  #914  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

Add fuel tanks!
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  #915  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

AT, I think you're working too hard. As I stated in my previous post, changing the Ram Scoop to max 4 per ship worked perfectly and that's it. No other work required. With this, the player can make some ships with 4, some with 3, some with 2, etc. making a conscious design decision to travel far or fight well. Nuff Said?
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  #916  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

The early tech limits are too low. With a range of only six, a vessel might not even be able to leave the home system without running out of gas.

If the player builds a colony ship on turn 1, it becomes available on turn three. That ship should be able to reach at least a neighboring sector and colonize without failing, a range of about twelve average. Building an explorer on turn one should result in a ship that can do some exploring.

With a storage capacity of three turns, a ship's fuel radius is one and a half turns from a resupply center.
It is the refill rate that determines what speed a ship can travel. The ships travel until out of gas, and then run at their maximum refill rate. This can also be done by stopping to refill, and then running at full speed, but it amounts to the same velocity.
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  #917  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

Quote:
AngleWyrm_2 said:
The early tech limits are too low. With a range of only six, a vessel might not even be able to leave the home system, let alone colonize or transport population.

The early game should still be playable, otherwise there is no reason to have the technology in the game.
The range is extend by the use of supply generation components. The loss is only 20 per move so they should have a good range.

To the other post above:
I have been working on this mod for nearly three years now and I have to tell you that it is completely differnt than it was when I started. Given by the amount of downloads this mod has had, and the emails I get, the mod is somewhat popular at the moment. I do get some negative emails, mostly people complaining that the mod is NOT star trek enough. Well no duh, its a mod of Space Empires and not a mod of a star trek game. Believe me when I say that I have grown very inpatient with those kind of emails. It seems that no matter how much I tell people, someone always seems to not get the message. So I have taken a few steps to ENLIGHTEN people about the fundamental basics that govern this, and indeed, any mod.

I get the occational "what in the hell were you thinking email" and again, I just have to say that I was not. Seriously, when I started modding I knew nothing, I still don't but I am learning. Thanks mainly to people like Rollo, Fyron, Aiken, SJ, Kwok, and many many many more the mod has endure and improved over the last couple of years. Even though I might get discussed with some of the email I get, for the most part, 99% of them are very positive and helpful. I guess that you just cannot please all of the people all of the time. But I try.
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  #918  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

Quote:
AngleWyrm_2 said:
If the player builds a colony ship on turn 1, it becomes available on turn three. That ship should be able to reach at least a neighboring sector and colonize without failing, a range of about twelve average. Building an explorer on turn one should result in a ship that can do some exploring.

I have not yet tested the new model but I am confident that it will work well. If not I will give the Colony Modules more supply storage to compensate. I want a colony ship to be able to move between 15 and 20 squares with no resupply generation. More with it.
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  #919  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

You could always add supply storage to the colony module itself.

By the way, Atrocities you do a great job on the mod, don't let a few nitpickers get you down.

EDIT oops, I should type faster, you beat me to the idea.
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  #920  
Old March 23rd, 2005, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: The Star Trek Mod - 1.9.1.2 Update Released

Thanks DH. I like nitpickers though; they help to make the mod more fun. It’s the folks that just don't understand the basics behind the limitations of modding space empires IV that drive me insane. Those folks just don't listen no matter how many times you tell them something.


The following are expepts from many emails over the last few weeks. (Not direct quotes - I deleted the messages to save disk space.)

"In star trek there are no warp points. Why are there warp points in your mod?"

The star trek mod is a MOD of space empires IV therefore it is limited by the physics of the game. Space empires IV has warp point so we have them in the mod.

"I fail to understand why you simply do not mod out the warp points."

I see that you do not understand what I mean. Space Empires is set up, by that I mean it is hard coded, to use warp points therefore any mod made for the game is stuck with warp points. I cannot mod around this.

"Well in star trek there are no warp points, they use warp engines and I will tell you that your warp engines work nothing like they should. (Enclosed is a warp core speed model and technical break down)"

Thank you for the information. Again I understand that Star Trek does not use warp points, however as I have stated before I am limited by the physics of the game. As for the warp drive system, again we are limited by the physics of the game and have tried to emulate as well as we can, a warp drive propulsion system. If you like, you can read the back-story for the mod. (Link)

"Well I just don't understand why you just don't do away with the warp points. They are not in star trek. As for your back-story I will have you know that Data died and O'Brian went back to earth to be a teacher. Therefore you story does not match the establish facts of Star Trek."

Thanks for the email again Tommy, as I have repeatedly tried to explain to you warp points are hard coded into the game and cannot be modded out or around. We are stuck with them because that is how Aaron Hall has set the game up. It is his game and therefore his rules. As for the back-story, you will note that I stated that Data was the duplicate version from Nemesis. As for O'Brian, the story takes place long after the events in DS9 final episode took place. Please read again I believe I may have explained this in the story.

"Your federation star ships do not look like federation star ships. I have never seen some of these Romulan ships you use and I would enjoy knowing where you got the specs for the Vulcan, Vaadwaur, Son's, Orion, Gorn, Kazon, Hirogen, and Andorian ships. I cannot find any of the ships you have in any Star Fleet records or documentations. Additionally I would like to point out that your warp drive system does not properly reflect how a warp drive system should work. Again the warp points in your mod need to be removed and a true star trek propulsion system should be adopted."

The ships are my own models. I wanted to have full control over there use. I could not have full control over the use of other people’s models so I made my own. As for the ship designs I used for the races you listed, well I just made them up. I attempted to make them as true to forum as I could, but without having anything to base designs on, I opted to go with some creative license. I will not get into the warp point or drive discussion again. I have explained this to you many times now.

"I compared your federation models to the ships in star fleet command and Armada, and they do not look anything like them. As to the warp drive and warp point discussion you have not yet told me why you will not adopt a true star trek type of propulsion and do away with warp points."

Thanks for your emails. If you have any more comments please post them on the forum. I am not going to have the time to respond to any more of your emails.

(He sent a few more) - Note: Tommy I have tried to explain things to you, you have not posted on the forum so the loss is yours.
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