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  #21  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 06:13 AM
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Thilock_Dominus Thilock_Dominus is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

LOTD (Land Of The Dragonkin) is meant for SP, I havn't heard or seen a MP with mod(s), correct me if I'm wrong. Though if lots of people are requesting it for multiplayer and will gladly use it for that purpose I won't hesistate to make an another Version of it or make the changes in the original.

Quote:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Obviously there's really been no attempt to balance this mod.
Didn't you read my statement that you can't rely on the old list?


As Boron stated, wait with the big-balance-issue untill the first beta release or atleast to I have posted the new unit list.

LOTD gonna replace Atlantis, but people can change that easely if they want to.


best regards
Thilock

[ August 02, 2004, 07:15: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]
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  #22  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 07:52 AM
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Thilock_Dominus Thilock_Dominus is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Quote:
Originally posted by Blitz:
If that wasn't the intention, then I would point out that the race is terribly unbalanced. It surpases or equals several races in their "theme". It's a more powerful astral nation than Arcoscephale. It's a better flying nation than Caelum. It has better random magic than Tiern Chi S&A.
1. Only one hero(Temple priest) got astral magic, which is reduced to two, also I've removed the 1 random it had. Cost 420 gold

2. Caelum can s-move 3 while the draconians can only s-move 2, also the elite army of Draconians (The temple Lord and Temple guards) can't fly.

3. Perhaps the draconians have higher random magic than T'ien C'hi, but look at it in this way: Arcane Changeling is capitol restricted, all of its magic is random so you can't build up a thoughtfull strategy and put it to use. You have to buy it (spending alot of gold) and then see where it fits. It's gambling ...and how much money would a player use on an unit they don't really know turns out?

4. It's an expensive race, means you are using alot of money to buy some few units, also expensive units have high upkeep that keep the player to have fewer units.
Fewer units = Easely overun by the enemy.
If the enemy have trample units like mammoth, you are really on deep water, it will maul down the expensive draconian units


best regards
Thilock

[ August 02, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]
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  #23  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 08:41 AM

Sindai Sindai is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Quote:
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
1. Only one hero(Temple priest) got astral magic, which is reduced to two, also I've removed the 1 random it had. Cost 420 gold
Why is the astral there at all, though? it doesn't fit with the rest of their magic. Heck, even the other magic-Users in that "family" of units don't get any astral. It really doesn't make any sense and detracts from the symmetry of the design.

Quote:
3. Perhaps the draconians have higher random magic than T'ien C'hi, but look at it in this way: Arcane Changeling is capitol restricted, all of its magic is random so you can't build up a thoughtfull strategy and put it to use. You have to buy it (spending alot of gold) and then see where it fits. It's gambling ...and how much money would a player use on an unit they don't really know turns out?
It's really not much of a gamble. You're guaranteed low of medium levels in all 4 elements, or a high level in one. That alone is pretty useful.

But that's not really the main problem with the unit. It has the same primary problem as the astral priest: why is it there? It doesn't seem to fit the fire-wind theme. Acro and Spring and Autumn are practically built around hefty random-magic units, this one just seems to have been tacked on for the heck of it. I would drop the unit altogether.

Overall, the Draconians seem to suffer from kitchen sink syndrone. I think the mages should perhaps be focused a little more, and I like the idea of capital-only recruitable dragons (less powerful than the pretender dragons, but still very good). Also, maybe increase the armor and resource costs of most of their units. I think a neat theme to go for would be a combination of Abyssia (slow, tough, fire-Users) and Caelum (quick, weak, air-Users). You'd end up with a medium-speed, medium-power flying race with the dragons as a really unique feature.
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  #24  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 03:06 PM
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Boron Boron is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Quote:
Originally posted by Endoperez:


quote:

About the 'Arcane Changeling', the six random is limited to the elements (No death, nature or astral) and are limited to recruitable in the capitol. I think it is one of the funniest creation I came up with. You buy something and don't know which magic paths it will have
Also it's more expensive than shown in the 'old' list.

best regards
Thilock
Six randoms in four paths of magic? He ALWAYS has ATLEAST 2211, often three in one and you can reliably get 4 at mid- to late game. Also, you need maximum of 3 for elem. magic booster, and so can easily forge Staff of Elemental Masteries... And find all the elemental sites!
I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics.

hm i think 6 elemental random is nice :

probability for 3+ in one skill :
probability for 6 + probability for 5 + probability for 4 + probability for 3 =
1/4 to the power of 6 + 1/4 to the power of 5 x 3/4 + 1/4 to the power of 4 x 3/4 to the power of 2 + 1/4 to the power of 3 x 3/4 to the power of 3 = 1/4096 + 3/4096 + 9/4096 + 27/4096 = 5/512 probability total for 3+ in one path .

that is by no way too powerful . you can say only ~ 1 of 100 random 6 elemental mages has a power of 3 or greater in one path .
only about every 3rd of these has a power of 4 or greater in one path so about 1 of 300 of these mages has a power of 4 or greater in one path .
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  #25  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 04:08 PM

Turms Turms is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Quote:
Originally posted by Boron:


probability for 3+ in one skill :
probability for 6 + probability for 5 + probability for 4 + probability for 3 =
1/4 to the power of 6 + 1/4 to the power of 5 x 3/4 + 1/4 to the power of 4 x 3/4 to the power of 2 + 1/4 to the power of 3 x 3/4 to the power of 3 = 1/4096 + 3/4096 + 9/4096 + 27/4096 = 5/512 probability total for 3+ in one path .

that is by no way too powerful . you can say only ~ 1 of 100 random 6 elemental mages has a power of 3 or greater in one path .
only about every 3rd of these has a power of 4 or greater in one path so about 1 of 300 of these mages has a power of 4 or greater in one path .
Sorry but your maths is way off. The real number is actually that around 65% of mages are 3+. Around 14% even are 4+ in one area.

You can think like this. When you have distributed 5 randoms in the worst possible way you have a 2111 mage. So the minimum for 3+ is 25%

I can post the maths if someone is really interested. Anyways 6 random elemantals is way too powerful IMHO.
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  #26  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 04:13 PM

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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

In your analysises you have forgotten the permutations ... so for a SPECIFIC path you have

6+ 1/4 to the power of 6 ~ 0.02%
5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 %
4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 %
3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 %

so it means that you have 13.1 + 3.3 + 0.4 ~ 17 %

to have a mage that is at least 3 in a single path ... if you are not insterested in a specific path it is 68 % ...

so more that 2 mage every 3 are at least 3+ in something with a 6 elemental random ... too strong!

good play
Liga

Post Edited: ooops ... I have seen only now the Last post

[ August 02, 2004, 15:16: Message edited by: liga ]
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  #27  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

thnx liga & turms .

i should have looked in my statistics book before i post this

5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 %
4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 %
3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 %

liga could you please share how you come to 6 , 15 and 20 times exactly ?
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  #28  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 04:46 PM
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Thilock_Dominus Thilock_Dominus is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Quote:
Originally posted by Sindai:
Why is the astral there at all, though? it doesn't fit with the rest of their magic. Heck, even the other magic-Users in that "family" of units don't get any astral. It really doesn't make any sense and detracts from the symmetry of the design.
...and again why do the C'tis have astral?
When I made my first thoughts on how a Draconian Temple priest would be like was a priest who can bless the troops and see beyond the matrial world (astral magic). That's the thoughts that came up when I tried to imagine how such person would be like. An old draconian with a staff, wise and noble, marked by the years. Dressed in extravegant(sp?) robe.
So I fail to see your point. Alot of the nations have 2 major magic paths and a minor one that doesn't spoil their themes IMHO.

Quote:
It's really not much of a gamble. You're guaranteed low of medium levels in all 4 elements, or a high level in one. That alone is pretty useful.

But that's not really the main problem with the unit. It has the same primary problem as the astral priest: why is it there? It doesn't seem to fit the fire-wind theme. Acro and Spring and Autumn are practically built around hefty random-magic units, this one just seems to have been tacked on for the heck of it. I would drop the unit altogether.
No way! The story behind why the draconians have changelings is some of the draconian eggs had suffered from magic radiation which alter the consistent of the draconian baby's DNA so their cells can change form.I know it sounds a bit star trek , but a like the Idea of the a part of the draconian race suffered from the strong magic that are flowing within the mountains where they live. And afterall it's only the Arcane Changeling which have randoms and Draconian Elder which have one random.

I can't see the water-sink problem. Yes the units need some adjustments. That's the beta test for

I'm open for critizism but I can't see your point of you... but we(Those who wants to beta test and I) just have to see how it fits before denying possible units and heroes.


best regards
Thilock
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  #29  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Endoperez and Sindai have both made good points, and I agree with them. Apart from the gold cost, the weaknesses of this race are trivial. Their strengths are equivalent to three normal nations.

1.Flying
2.Scaly
3.Bite
4.Fire Breath
5.Fire resistance
6.Powerful mages of Fire, Air and Astral
7.Decent mage priests
8.The most flexible mage in the game, bar none. Who cares if he's capital only?
9.SC assassins.
10. Almost unlimited searching and forging opportunities.
11. Excellent province defence. Probably.

Their biting ability alone could carry a nation. There aren't that many units with multiple attacks, and they are often expensive or have limitations. These guys have a secondary attack as a racial feature. They're going to chew (literally) through the opposition. And that's just one of their minor abilities.
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  #30  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 07:56 PM
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Thilock_Dominus Thilock_Dominus is offline
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Default Re: Draconian Mod Under construction

Here is the stats for the dragons:

Any Idea how muxh the cost should be? Or some modification?
They gonna be capitol restricted.

Storm Dragon
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Pyro Dragon
HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Temple Dragon
HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????


By the way I'm thinking on dropping the Changelings, it seems people think it's a bad Idea. What about letting a commander called 'Story Teller' replacing them. An unit with bard skills?


best regards
Thilock
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