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  #21  
Old October 1st, 2004, 10:27 AM
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Boron Boron is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

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Nagot Gick Fel said:
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Boron said:
Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .
That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.
Yeah but Abysia has a hard time anyway against Airnations cause they can use staff of storms , then less precision for firespells + the devils don't fly anymore as well as your other SCs .
Overall fire is slightly less useful than air imo .
And 2 of the good airnations , pythium + caelum have Water for quickness .
Iron dragons and mechanical Men are Fireimmune too + lightning immune so you can use them together with wrathful skies to add to the pain of poor Abysia
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  #22  
Old October 1st, 2004, 10:59 AM
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Nagot Gick Fel Nagot Gick Fel is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

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Boron said:
Yeah but Abysia has a hard time anyway against Airnations cause they can use staff of storms , then less precision for firespells + the devils don't fly anymore as well as your other SCs .
That's a different issue. Anyway nobody forces you to use Salamanders, Dragons and Devils vs these nations. I've never found it to be hard with Abysia to summon Demon Knights or Storm Devils to deal with this eventuality, and to use either Warlocks or Demonbreds to lead them. Or even Fiends led by flying Spectres, very useful to wreak havoc behind the enemy lines.

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Overall fire is slightly less useful than air imo.
On that I agree.
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  #23  
Old October 1st, 2004, 11:21 AM

Peter Ebbesen Peter Ebbesen is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

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Boron said:
My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .

That is not a point - that is an opinion. A point would be something you could use as an argument to sway the opposition; that you think something makes sense wholeheartedly is not an argument for others to do so and hence no point.

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You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .

I do not have to admit it (as that implies that I have suggested otherwise, which I have not) - but I will certainly agree with that... [Except when the opposition is evil enough to cast that nasty high-level fire spell that gives everybody without fire resistance fatigue or when the opposition hits a group of exposed mages with fires from afar].

So what? That has very little to do with setting the right price.

As an example, Caelum has strong mages that cost way less than everybody elses. Does that mean that everybody else should get cheaper mages? (which would still leave Caelum with better mages compared to the price vs. most nations). No, it does not. Caelum is a magocracy and the mages are its main strength. (Its secondary being flight)

Likewise, the Abysians. They are not wannabe-Theurgs - they are Abysians, part of the proud Abysian people and army. As a nation they have their own strength and weaknesses, and one of their main weaknesses is that they are not inexpensive to hoard in large numbers, especially in the early game. Would you be willing to give up one of their strengths in return for being cheaper?

Come to think of it, this has already been done in the Blood of the Humans theme.
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  #24  
Old October 1st, 2004, 01:18 PM

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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

I disagree with the vision "magocracy" so cheaper mages.
Same for Pythium ... a "magic-theocracy" doesn't means Pythium should have the best prices mage-priests.
Magocracy = Mages everywhere.
This is fine.
Caelumnian mages have been raised in cost (both).
Pythium Theur have been raised.

Ulm is a Military Nation ... sadly troops after turn XX (depending on settings) become useless for damage purposal.
Meanwhile Caelum mages are damn good always.

For pricing I consider their overrall effectiveness. Priestly power doesn't give Research Points. And has a limited range of spells, and no forging at all. Priestly Level will become soon useless, with troops.
Abysyan Anthemats aren't so good. It seems that everyone forgets about their Precision ... making them not so good combat mages, even if your troops are immune probably you'll miss enemy troops.
A Caelumnian Seraph is now 140 gold. Why? It's non capitol only. A2W1 is a good magic combo, quickness + lightning/frozen heart or false horror spam. + Cloud Trapeze. Neatly superior to ie a Warlock Apprentice. Fire Resistance is compared to Cold Resistance. Better hp compared to superior precision, and the Caelumnian guy flies.

I've changed too the Marignon Gran Master (to 250 gold).
The Serpent King (the guy with 4 priestly level) bringing him down of price to 180 too.
Now I don't recall exactly, but I'll make a readme before I release something more there.
However this post (and my mod too) lacks of a full listing of all modifies.
And my Mod still lacks of testing.
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  #25  
Old October 1st, 2004, 01:48 PM

Peter Ebbesen Peter Ebbesen is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

At low levels, fireballs and flares tend to hit something despite their precision if they are in a target rich environment and you will not take friendly casualties since everybody has fire resistance - but you will probably have the Anathenant Salamanders and Dragons along for their priest levels rather than their fire magic - which is as it should be: They are priests first and mages second. You do not have your priests around to form firing squads but to keep your troops in shape while they chew up the opposition.

At high levels, incinerate is precision 100 and accuracy is not an issue - and your priests are armed and dangerous. Still great for shepherding an army of high-bless Lava Warriors if you like that sort of thing, but able to take potshots at anybody who raises his head at the wrong time.

The Abysian mages, the Warlock Apprentice and Warlock, have astral 100 precision attacks in combat.

Arguing that since after a certain late-game turn ordinary troops are no longer useful priest levels are less important and should thus be seriously discounted would seem to indicate that the mod is directed specifically towards long games rather than both short, medium, and long games, as high level priests are very, very, valuable in both short and medium games. (I also find them useful in long games to quickly flip dominion of a newly occupied province but you might not)

If your intention with the mod is to make a mod for long-term games solely, then my apologies for not understanding it earlier: It would explain a number of your design decisions and I suggest you amend your first post to make this clear, if that is indeed your desire.
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  #26  
Old October 1st, 2004, 02:06 PM

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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

It's like watching Peter really lay into a punching bag that just sways back and forth until frustration or exhaustion take it's toll. Perhaps he will start using headbutts for emphasis.

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  #27  
Old October 1st, 2004, 02:44 PM

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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

I don't believe my MOD is for long term games only but even for every game lenght.
Warlocks (both type) are rarely used in battle since they S1 or S1 first need a path booster if you want a good 100% precision (you've only paralize, useful only against big guys, and you should shoot at, if they're in mid of troops ... you'll hit the nearest), and for S1 ... well ... not so many choices. I know there's communion and power of the sphere, but Abysya isn't go good at this, even because don't forget Warlocks are your blood hunter and researchers ... do you really think you can afford that many of them outside their main role?

Priests: if I've to revert to my dominion a province, I prefer to use indep mages. For 200 gold cost for a salamander I've better use along any army. However who can really afford a salamander or dragon in first turns except the very first turn? (because you start with 400). If you want a salamander you've to alchemize gems first, and probably to not buy any infantry that turn (I talk the firsts 4-5 turns ... because you need too to speed up your research to unleash your pretender) ...
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  #28  
Old October 1st, 2004, 04:18 PM

Peter Ebbesen Peter Ebbesen is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

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Cohen said:
I don't believe my MOD is for long term games only but even for every game lenght.
Warlocks (both type) are rarely used in battle since they S1 or S1 first need a path booster if you want a good 100% precision (you've only paralize, useful only against big guys, and you should shoot at, if they're in mid of troops ... you'll hit the nearest), and for S1 ... well ... not so many choices. I know there's communion and power of the sphere, but Abysya isn't go good at this, even because don't forget Warlocks are your blood hunter and researchers ... do you really think you can afford that many of them outside their main role?

I guess I could point out that you have forgotten the stats of Warlocks (BBBSS+random) and your comments regarding their use on battlefields thus partially invalidated. As such, I can well believe that you do not regularly use them in battles. Warlocks are S2, not S1, which allows for mind burn, paralyze, solar rays, and with just a single +1 astral item (or power of the spheres or communion), soul slay, control, battle fortune, antimagic, opposition.

...Some of these are selectively useful, some are very useful for destroying enemies, some are good for troop support. The Warlock is certainly not the best battlefield mage, but useless on the field he is not.

From my point of view, Warlock Apprentices have two important roles to fill. Bloodhunting first and foremost, and being communion slaves in a pinch (I much prefer independent lizard shamans for that role if available, of course). Warlocks are researchers first and battlefield mages second, only used in numbers when Abysia is treatened.

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Priests: if I've to revert to my dominion a province, I prefer to use indep mages. For 200 gold cost for a salamander I've better use along any army. However who can really afford a salamander or dragon in first turns except the very first turn? (because you start with 400). If you want a salamander you've to alchemize gems first, and probably to not buy any infantry that turn (I talk the firsts 4-5 turns ... because you need too to speed up your research to unleash your pretender) ...
One Dragon in the early game is enough, though it much depends on your strategy whether it is worthwhile buying him. If your strategy is built around a good bless effect and Lava Warriors, a Demonbred will do fine, since highly blessed Lava Warriors chew up independents like mad. However, since you talk about unleashing your pretender as a matter of cause, it would seem a fair guess that you belong solidly in the SC pretender school, in which case your priority would be cheap mages to jumpstart research rather than good scales, mages, priests, or troops.
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  #29  
Old October 1st, 2004, 04:27 PM

Peter Ebbesen Peter Ebbesen is offline
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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

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Zen said:
It's like watching Peter really lay into a punching bag that just sways back and forth until frustration or exhaustion take it's toll. Perhaps he will start using headbutts for emphasis.


No, so long as I remain open to the idea that I might be wrong and that those I debate with have at least a rudimentary ability to use reasoned arguments to support their cause, and hence that I may learn something from those I debate with, I tend to keep on going and going until my batteries run flat... Or until it is time to eat
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  #30  
Old October 1st, 2004, 09:47 PM

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Default Re: Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

Well, I've miswriten about Warlock, in fact I said in parentesys paralize, mind burn and such.
True Abysya uses Warlocks only when menaced, but it's pretty rare to see them in battle. You need them for blood hunt and research.

About a bless strategy, I've tried it once, and I will never try it again with Abysya.
Blessed troops are capitol only, cost a lot of resources and are far inferior to most other blessed troops. They can get easily arrowed (no shield, unless you go BoH ... but really there you lack in magic), and a plague or anything else in your capitol will cripple your holy troops production forever.
Sometimes I tried an AX bless to air shield Anthemaths, but nothing for troops.

Ant.Dragon is useful earlygame for keeping your morale high. But Aby troops really needs more than 1 priest behind them to keep them in line, their low number makes them easy to rout even from LI armed with javelins, or arrow fire.

Scales in the mod have been modified too to make them a good choice too (production, growth and fortune), or to make them less exploitable to earn points.

Yes I belong to the SC Pretender School. I tried other strategies (Great Warlock with air to Aim and good Fire to exploit flare at low fatigue, + water to quickness - Moloch as F9 blessing and massive fire battery - FoB to start early blood hunt and swith to devil earlier). Definitely it's the best way to lose, as the game it is. Any pretender, at least with Abysya, unable to take province by solo will make you dead. Any enemy can take 1 province with army, and 1 with pretender (til they get a 2nd army). Considering if your army is routed you're going to lose all your HI, and that you'll put 4 turn to set up a +/- 16 HI army this will totally halt your expansion.

To keep the pace you need so 1 army and 1 pretender to take possibly 2 provinces at turn, earn more money, and thus save Fire Gems ... because isn't an option to alchemize, it's a must for Abysya if you want to stay competitive, meanwhile other nations can recruit normally, and save their gems for later.
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