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  #11  
Old October 14th, 2017, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

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In July 2017 the first batch of 120mm SP-mortars Rak was delivered - http://www.army-technology.com/proje...mortar-system/ (Rosomak chassis, something similar to Russian #595 2S23 Nona-SVK), other photos: http://iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/image/regi3.jpg
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  #12  
Old October 18th, 2017, 05:56 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Beautiful

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Quote:
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Poland to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL:
http://www.defence24.com/312490,leop...n-battle-tanks

...
026 Leopard 2PL - of course, like most of Polish AFV upgrade programs, it remained in plans only as for now
I must admit, I haven't checked progress in Leopard 2PL program, since they aren't in service yet. However, they were already ordered and deliveries of pre-series tanks are expected from 6/18.

The turret armour is said to be better, than in 2A5. Some claim, that it is 2A7 level (Polish article: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demo...o-leopard-2pl/), but this article http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2pl.htm says "it offers higher protection than turret of the Leopard 2A5, however it can not match protection level of the Leopard 2A7".
Now turret front anti-HEAT is much worse than 2A5 (130 vs 185). Turret extra sides are thicker, than in A5, and might be A7 level indeed.
On the other hand, there is no information, that hull armour is to be modified, so it should stay on 2A4 level.

Fire control system is not to be upgraded in any substantial way, apart from newer and better TI cameras (which don't affect FC directly, I guess). (article in Polish: http://www.altair.com.pl/e-report/view?article_id=820). I think that FC should be max 50 (2A5 has 45, German early 2A6 has 50).

New ammo DM53 is expected to be used (I hope, that the politicians won't decide, that they have a modernized tank, so they could save on ammo...). Therefore it should have better gun, than others. It should be given also some HE ammo (DM11).

An icon might need to be changed in a future, because a turret shape is different, but there are no good upper views as for now. I thought Turkish 7527 could do, but it has an extra side hull armour (and a longer barrel - but should it?... ).

The best kind of upper views are here: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demo...o-leopard-2pl/

A photo is 2A5 now. There are photos of a prototype only as for now, most interesting is: http://zbiam.pl/artyku%C5%82y/pierws...u-leopard-2pl/

Of course, apart from Leo 2PL, there should be regular Leopard 2A5 available since mid-2014.
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  #13  
Old October 22nd, 2017, 06:28 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

There appeared some more information about PT-91 Twardy tanks, basically confirming my analysis from this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=48222&page=2 , but some things might be improved.

In a meantime, there were first of all articles in Poligon 3/2013 and Nowa Technika Wojskowa (nTW) 9/2015, and a deep analysis of Erawa ERA, made by author of the latter article: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/a...eaktywne-erawa (in Polish)

Now we have:

010 PT-91 Twardy (1/95-12/95) - first model without TI (#129 gun D81T 75, sabot 43)

There was an information in nTW 11/1995, that the first series tanks delivered in 1995 were fitted with TI as well, but on the other hand, some articles say in general about tanks with TI and with passive night vision only (without details as for numbers or dates, though). Prototypes had no TI, but it might have been bought in time for production machines... I'd tend to fit this tank with TI (a difference between unit 018 would still be radio code).

018 PT-91 Twardy (1/96-12/98) - basic model with TI.

021 PT-91 Twardy (1/99-125) - #161 PO-99 gun (sabot 54) - because of a small quantity of Pronit sabot rounds available, it should have only a couple of sabot rounds (say 4), and the rest - regular AP (which exist in #161 gun, and has a penetration 43, like sabot of #129 gun)

711 PT-91MA1 (1/99-125) - strange variant with weaker armour, PO-99 gun, better stabilizer, 3 top ERA - apparently added after my changes (...unless I overlooked it when I researched Polish OOB in 2012).

The last tank is wrong and I don't know what it represents - it has weaker basic armour than other PT-91, and even T-72M1. All of these should have the same armour. Neither the stabiliser has been improved (not counting a stabiliser diagnostic system fitted in all PT-91, which rather does not improve it lousy work). PT-91MA1 is an official designation of T-72s modernized to PT-91 standard, but it is never used in practice, and all are just referred to as PT-91, without much practical differences (BTW designations are rather contradictory in available articles). So it should be replaced with something else.

Conclusions:

All PT-91 should have ERA top armour (at least 5) - almost 50% of upper surface is covered with ERA, and more tightly fitted, than in Soviet tanks (https://www.the-blueprints.com/bluep...-p/pt-91-2.png)

Survivability of all tanks might be improved over T-72M1 (5 instead of 4), due to new Deugra firefighting system (Russian T-90 has 5).

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

There was finally published an information, that part of Erawa-1 ERA was replaced with Erawa-2, made of two layers of explosive, two thin armoured steel sheets and a ceramic tile. It was revealed, that during tests it decreased efficiency of early APFSDS, like Russian 3BM15, by around 57%, and even in one case prevented German DM33A1 from penetrating a front plate. Maybe it should be treated as advanced ERA then?... It is not as effective against modern long core APFSDS, but it has been suggested, that their efficiency would be lowered by 7-10%. ERAWA-2 is mounted on hull front and turret front and sides. There are no dates given, but most probably it was connected with a new configuration of turret ERA (on vertical strips with 3 blocks instead of individual blocks), introduced between 1996 and 9/1997 (when I've first seen such tank on MSPO defence industry exhibition .

So, I suggest to introduce a new model with advanced ERA on front and turret sides, basing upon unit #018, available from some 6/97 to 125 (it might replace unit #711). A photo should be 32261 from unit 021, with new ERA strips (photo 29495 of unit 711 shows early tank).
Also, unit #021 with Pronit sabot could have its armour upgraded.

There's a hope, that PT-91s will eventually be modernized by 2020 (in a way suggested in numerous articles from 1998 to 2015...), following Leo 2 modernization. We could add such tank now, with better ammo (500-600 RHA), good stabilizer and improved gun accuracy (thanks to new Slovak or Ukrainian gun models)*. I understand that you don't like future tanks (and I don't like either), but I guess, that with such modest expectations, and a modernization plans closing to reality, it won't be too much wishful thinking.

------
* BTW: according to a quoted article in nTW 9/2015, 2A46 gun mounted in T-72 up to Russian model A/M1 (and in other older tanks) had mediocre accuracy, due to bigger backlash and asymmetric recuperators. Its accuracy was much improved in 2A46M model, mounted in T-72B, newer variants of T-80, T-90 and yet better 2A46M-5 mounted in T-72B3. All 125mm guns in the Russian OOB have accuracy 13, apart from the gun from Armata tank...
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  #14  
Old October 23rd, 2017, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

If you ( or anyone else ) is going to make suggestions for OOB changes you better make sure you understand how the game works in regard to that change and in this case you clearly do not. There is NO code that gives 3 VIRSS and you should have checked that before posting
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  #15  
Old October 23rd, 2017, 05:20 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Sorry, Don.
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  #16  
Old January 13th, 2021, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Just to mention, for like 3 years now Poland has its 5th main military component, which is Territorial Force (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej). They resemble danish Hemsvaern.

I believe it is roughly the time to include them in the OOBs? Also it should be mentioned that they use - as standard rifle - the Radom MSBS Grot AR that is also in early stage of implementation in standard Polish Army. It closely resembles ACR Bushmaster and probably be quialified for starts roughly as CZ Bren.

So far there are variations of company structures, but they should operate in three platoons, three sections each, and with 12 men in each section, including PK/UKM machinegun. RPG-7s are also available, however I am not sure if in every section.
However, WOT has or will have its own logistical system and it is aquiring weapons as independent buyer, thus they do not receive army stocks.
For this reason, starting with late 2021 first Javelins should be avilable for WOT, just as should be Spikes.
What I recomment is adding those types of formations:
WOT Company (on foot)
WOT Company (Mot) - on standard medium trucks, 2-3 per platoon (WOT will not operate heavier gear)
WOT ATGM Platoon (it can accompany the company, too) - with 3 Javelin or Spike missiles

Typical armament should be: MSBS Grot AR, UKM-2000, GNPO launcher and RPG-7. Typical section size of 12 men, probably qualified as Reserve Infantry and/or Guards Infantry.
WOT is being motivated on historical and quasi political grounds, I recomment it to have -5 for EXP (weekend soldiers after all but trained by professionals) but +5 to morale given their very function.

Could it be done?
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  #17  
Old January 13th, 2021, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

I suppose we could but are they significantly different in organization from a standard rifle company or platoon?
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  #18  
Old January 13th, 2021, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

They do - bigger sections (12 so far compared to ~6 nominally, there is no Polish "rifle" section per se as no unit except WOT is footmobile), diffent support weapons, different main service rifle... well, National Guard gets own formations even though differences are little. Scandinavian territorial force is also added for a long time. WOT already has about 25 thousand troops with 54 thousand to be there by 2023.
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  #19  
Old January 13th, 2021, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Build the units if need be and put them in formations then post it here and I will check them over and try to get it in. That's the simplest way. Save it as OB 98
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  #20  
Old January 15th, 2021, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Quote:
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Build the units if need be and put them in formations then post it here and I will check them over and try to get it in. That's the simplest way. Save it as OB 98
Here is what I found about WOT (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej)

That's true they are 4th military component after Ground Forces&Navy&Air force

Schematic of base unit



Their official webpage google translated to English
https://translate.google.com/transla...l%2F&sandbox=1

Presentation from WOT about their structure and tasks. in Slide 11 is a Structure of WOT Light infantry company
https://slideplayer.pl/slide/13775754/



Here twitter about their MSBS Grot AR https://twitter.com/terytorialsi/sta...74095996375040

As is possible to see on that photo their main Truck is STAR-266M2 deep modernisation and rebuilding of original STAR266 from 1970
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_266M

They also receive new trucks Jelcz 442.32 "Bartek" introduced to army in 2013 they buy especially 500 just for WOT in 2017 https://www.defence24.pl/mon-kupuje-...t-aktualizacja
Here is nice model of this truck https://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?p=1030098


https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelcz_442.32

And here in polish wikipedia is list of all weapons of WOT
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojska..._Terytorialnej

They have also LMP-2017 new mortar 60mm itroduced in 2019
https://www.milmag.pl/news/view?news_id=4111



https://www.radiomaryja.pl/informacj...erza-lmp-2017/
And better photos of new mortar http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/ar...rz-dla-WOT-u-#
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Last edited by blazejos; January 15th, 2021 at 01:16 PM..
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