Spells that arguably break the game

[Lingchih]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

The "arguably" was well placed in the subject.
I have seen complaints that the late game is decided more by magic than by armies, but I think that is on purpose. There are plenty of games available which are decided by armies. So I wouldnt want to see the game changed that way for everyone.

However, Im not against it as an option (which it is). I can see the idea that it would be fun to see a Dom3 game settled by armies. There have been some dom3 games which did that. There is a setting to make research difficult. And various mods for cutting out spells. In fact, the developers did create two mods. One limits all research to level 6, and another limits all research to level 4. Id be willing to host such a game on Dom3Minions.com if you wanted (for a direct connect game) or you can host it on LLamaserver.net (for a pbem game).

Damn, those really seem like a cop-out to me Gandalf. Why in the world would anyone play such games?

[Gandalf Parker]

Its not my choice. But as I understand it, they get tired of late-game always being decided by who has the strongest magic. There are some people who really enjoy the early game (explore, expand). And some who really like mid-game of armies meeting armies. I have no problem with people setting up such a game on a larger scale to extend those anymore than I would with no-diplomacy, not having certain nations in the game, or any game changing mod.

As long as its not considered as a permanent change to the entire game then its no problem. Variation in individual games = good. But "fixing" the game in a way that knocks out someone elses variation options = bad. IMHO of course.

[militarist]

Rdnoj:
"Burden of time does most of its damage in the first 2-3 turns it's up anyway. "

Why is that ? I don't understand why do you say here. Why 2-3 turns? I think it's effective every turn it's up.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Its not my choice. But as I understand it, they get tired of late-game always being decided by who has the strongest magic. There are some people who really enjoy the early game (explore, expand). And some who really like mid-game of armies meeting armies. I have no problem with people setting up such a game on a larger scale to extend those anymore than I would with no-diplomacy, not having certain nations in the game, or any game changing mod.

As long as its not considered as a permanent change to the entire game then its no problem. Variation in individual games = good. But "fixing" the game in a way that knocks out someone elses variation options = bad. IMHO of course.

I think that is it... where the 'preference' lies in the context of the conflict. I like the thug / SC / Army component of the game (at this point) i guess. Deciding the out come of a conflict by spells that deliver very real results for very little effort isn't clicking with me yet.

I'm going to try my hand at modding a set up such as this and see what happens. I don't think its so much a case of removing the capacity for nations to use powers such as this, it would be to look at the means in which they are able to affect it.

EG, remote assasin spells could be replaced by actual summon spells providing Assasin units...

Rain of toads replaced by an item - muchlike the bane venom charm

Gem gem globals replaced by a unique summons maybe, providing the same gem outputs but providing misfortune or death or reduce dominion as a consequence...

Yep Gandalf, it was important that i snuck arguably in there becasue it is simply that. At this point my premise has become, that, whilst it is important to retain the capacities these spells provide the player interms of drawing games to a conclusion, the means in which they (spells) are able to be brought to bear on an opponent is perhaps too easy and of consequence, significant damage can be done with minimal effort, which in my mind undermines the strategy and tactics of the game.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by militarist

Rdnoj:
"Burden of time does most of its damage in the first 2-3 turns it's up anyway. "

Why is that ? I don't understand why do you say here. Why 2-3 turns? I think it's effective every turn it's up.

The most potent effect of the burden of time is the killing off of national mages. Especially those that start off pretty old. But the best human mages in general tend to start close enough to old age that just a few turns of burden of time are enough to ensure that they'll die. That can be a LOT of mages. After you've killed off, say, 100 mages worldwide, relatively the rest of the turns are a lot less destructive... But sure, burden of time would be happy staying up and killing off the world's population.

[rdonj]

Amadamus - You are saying that assassination spells are too easy. But are they? Let us take earth attack as an example. This is a level 8 spell, so you're not going to see it until pretty late in the game unless someone is making a pretty concerted push up conjuration. And then you actually have to find someone who can cast it. With only one real earth booster in the game (unless you're playing vanilla) getting to level 5 earth magic is no easy task for most nations. There is pretty much no good way around at least 1 empower no matter what nation you are playing, and for most you'll probably need to summon troll kings to do it. That's over 100 earth gems, with little chance of cost reduction. So it's a significant investment you're putting into the ability, derailing your ability to build hammers, equip thugs, or cast other earth spells. All this, and you can stop them pretty easily with just a bottle of living water. Manifestation is basically the same, but with more boosters and a 50% chance of you being attacked instead unless there's a horror marked commander you're sending them at. Disease demons are the only ones that are *maybe* too easy, but I think those are a lot easier to stop with bodyguards than the other two.

Unrest spells are a bit different and can be very powerful in the early game, but are easily stopped by domes....

And I'd rethink the gem gen global replacement thing. For one thing it's not any better. In fact it is worse, because no one knows you have the gem generating thing, and can't do anything about it until they figure out where it is. Then they have to march an assassin all the way across the map to *attempt* to kill it? That is ridiculous. And there's nothing you could do about it now with the assassination spells gone. It then becomes a nearly perfectly safe investment, unlike gem generator globals which are clearly visible, show up in the score graphs, and can be taken out via a dispel or an assassinate. They are much more of a gamble as they are now.

[militarist]

Do boots of youth save again BoT? Ive read somewhere that not, but why it could be?

[rdonj]

Perhaps by somewhere you mean the second post in this thread? It does seem buggy that they don't protect against it. Which would make casting rejuvenate the best bet for keeping your mages alive while BoT is up.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by rdonj

getting to level 5 earth magic is no easy task for most nations. There is pretty much no good way around at least 1 empower no matter what nation you are playing

Actually, it's pretty easy for EA Agartha but some people keep saying they're a weak nation. Otherwise I agree, the spells are NOT cast without effort. They require research, forging, often empowering or summoning an able mage or designing a specific pretender, and then getting enough gems to actually cast the spells and keeping them up in the case of enchantments.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Amadamus - You are saying that assassination spells are too easy. But are they? Let us take earth attack as an example. This is a level 8 spell, so you're not going to see it until pretty late in the game unless someone is making a pretty concerted push up conjuration. And then you actually have to find someone who can cast it. With only one real earth booster in the game (unless you're playing vanilla) getting to level 5 earth magic is no easy task for most nations. There is pretty much no good way around at least 1 empower no matter what nation you are playing, and for most you'll probably need to summon troll kings to do it. That's over 100 earth gems, with little chance of cost reduction. So it's a significant investment you're putting into the ability, derailing your ability to build hammers, equip thugs, or cast other earth spells. All this, and you can stop them pretty easily with just a bottle of living water. Manifestation is basically the same, but with more boosters and a 50% chance of you being attacked instead unless there's a horror marked commander you're sending them at. Disease demons are the only ones that are *maybe* too easy, but I think those are a lot easier to stop with bodyguards than the other two.

Unrest spells are a bit different and can be very powerful in the early game, but are easily stopped by domes....

And I'd rethink the gem gen global replacement thing. For one thing it's not any better. In fact it is worse, because no one knows you have the gem generating thing, and can't do anything about it until they figure out where it is. Then they have to march an assassin all the way across the map to *attempt* to kill it? That is ridiculous. And there's nothing you could do about it now with the assassination spells gone. It then becomes a nearly perfectly safe investment, unlike gem generator globals which are clearly visible, show up in the score graphs, and can be taken out via a dispel or an assassinate. They are much more of a gamble as they are now.

Good points - swayed me alot!.