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  #1  
Old March 21st, 2007, 09:09 PM

BR_Adler BR_Adler is offline
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Default IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

The Infamous Wadi Salouki

The battle of Wadi Salouki will be remembered as one of the fiercest fights of the second Lebanon War.
A column of Merkava tanks from Brigade 401, commanded by Col. Moti Kidor, began crossing Wadi Salouki in the face of fierce Hezbollah resistance.


At least 100 guerrillas had deployed with their most advanced anti-tank missile - the Russian-made Kornet (AT-14). The first tank to cross the wadi was destroyed by a massive mine, and its crew was killed. Eight other tanks suffered anti-tank missile hits. Among the two dead are two company commanders.

* Scenario on playtest fase
** IED Roadside bomb and respective .LBM added
*** Lebanon OOB hacked to add AT-14 Kornet (by Syria)

Good game!
BR_Adler
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File Type: zip 506231-Wadi Salouki.zip (93.6 KB, 408 views)
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  #2  
Old March 22nd, 2007, 01:03 PM

pdoktar pdoktar is offline
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

Question: Is that a Merkava?
Answer: No

Turret add-on armor indicates a heavily modified M60. Also the drivers hatch with vision slits is visible, so no Merkavas front mounted engine.

Question: Who writes news?
Answer: Ill-literate and ill-advised reporters, who still can´t tell a difference between a tank and a SUV or haven´t learned to live with any kind of military propaganda, whatever the side is.

So you can think twice about the deployment of those mighty Kornet missiles also.
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 07:18 PM

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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

Question: Think twice about??
Answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet

The photo just ilustrate the power of roadside bombs on the tanks destruction. Merkava's has been the same treateament, or not?? Hezbollah is most mighty guerilla group of world. Very well equipped and motivated.

It will be that it is so difficult to accept the vision of true?

Hezbollah demystified the Israeli invencibility.
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  #4  
Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

Guys, let's not turn this into a political debate, OK?

The whole affair is pretty fresh, if you ask around there are chances you'll hear it isn't exactly over yet, so don't expect objective information to be found lying around.

So the tank on the pic above is a Magach-7 rather than a Merkava-IV, and most of the reported "invincible Israeli tanks destroyed by the mighty Hizbollah fighters" were not Merkava-IVs. Some of those were apparently pretty much disabled in fighting and ambushes, but they were certainly not the bulk of disabled Israeli armor.

Just to clarify things: I have no idea how many Merk-4s Tsahal fields. Given the overall Merkava and tank fleet numbers, I'd say one in ten or so, counting the old Magach, Shot and Tiran leftovers. Considering the huge rep of Israeli tanks and tankers, the showing off they did with the Merk-4, and the average armor knowledge of the average reporter , every time a Hezbollah spokesperson reported "defeated Israeli armor", everyone jumped to conclusions.
Besides, all politics aside, why would the Israeli command have sent their best and most expensive tanks when they didn't expect such resistance from the Hezbollah? And why would the Hezbollah have bothered shooting Merkavas when they were sure to have the same media coverage when they toasted 40-years old Tirans?

Now there have been reports that some Kornets were in Hezbollah hands, and afterwards that KBP and Russian authorities were investigating. That's the last I've heard of it. I don't trust that Wikipedia article an inch (matter of principle), but I readily admit that some Kornets have been smuggled from Syrian stocks by friendly hands.
There again, they certainly didn't make up most of the antitank weapons available, just as the Merkava-IVs didn't make up most of the Israeli tank force.

I've just tested the scenario (that thread is about a scenario, right?), and it turns out quite well.
So all political nagging aside, I just have two critics for you, Adler, and I hope they will be constructive:
-As said above, too much high-tech. Too many top-notch Merkavas against too many top-notch ATGMs (Milan-IIIs? do even Lebanon or Syria have those?). Except if you have visual evidence to the opposite, I think most of the Israeli column can be made of Merkava-I/IIs or even older tanks. And the Hezbollah force should rely less on Kornets and more on upgraded Malutkas or similar (take the Iranian SACLOS Raad-T f.e.). They are good enough for plunking anything short of a second-generation Merk and much less expensive.
-Second, your Hezbollah deployment could do with some trimming. Don't take it bad, I can see you put a great deal of work in this scenario, but some things look strange. A N commando formation before the HQ? Guys with inflatable rafts? fortified infantry position lying around with no one in them? Not much incidence on the gameplay, but it looks messy . Now what has more influence is that your Hezbollah force is probably a) too large (218 people for 100 from the Jerusalem Post?) and b) not too well-equipped. It looks like these guys have had days to set up. AK-47s only don't do much against tanks, so sprinkle some RPG-7 rounds on your frontline units, that will make things even more fun. Also, some of your ATGM teams don't have a view on the road (I know, detail, details...).

So good work, all in all, but I think it could be a good idea to refrain from making political statements out of scenarios. There are a lot of in-game and user-made scenarios that deal with real conflicts, even recent ones, and no one uses them for childish "haha! pwned!!" comments, it just takes the fun out of it.
Tell you what, the more you'll try to come up with an objective scenario and steer away from the politician- or journalist-made manichean narratives, the better the game will be.
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  #5  
Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

"Shot and Tiran leftovers"

AFAIK The T-55s went out of service in the 80's. Assuming that some are still available in the depots they would be used only for conversions. The Centurions too are out of service by now, not even in the reserve anymore, again conversion fodder for heavy APCs. I would guess that maybe some reserve unit still has some M48/60s with only ERA but any unit that is actually going to see the frontline would be equipped with heavily upgraded M48/60s as a minimum, or some model of Merkava.
The Kornet scare was just that, bull****. They seemingly had a bit of everything, from Sagger to TOWs (courtesy of the lebanese regular army I would suspect). Then Fagot/Spandrel, iranian tandem warhead RPGs and stuff like that. Definitively they were not awash in Kornets.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 05:26 AM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

OK, if you're sure of your sources I'll buy it, though I had heard back then that at least a couple of the infamously "invincible Israeli tanks disabled" were upgrade Tirans, but who knows. And right, if Centurions were mentioned, it was certainly as APCs.
I had reflected that ground forces had rushed into the war slightly unprepared and didn't expect such a resistance from the Hizbollah (correct me if I'm wrong), so I expected some older tanks (at least Magach-6s or the like, maybe worse) to trail over here and there.
Now if I've understood that at least, the scenario here takes place at the end of the war, so having older tanks all over the place might be BS after all, since everyone would have had time to notice the resistance (you wouldn't call it unexpected one month on, after all).

I don't think we will ever be sure for the Kornets, but even then I'm not against seeing a couple of them in a scenario, for want of better info. A couple, of course, not a whole company.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

"were upgrade Tirans" In the sense that they were Achzarit built from Tiran chassis, then yes.
I remeber several pictures posted on tanknet of a badly mauled Achzarit. But as actual tanks they are long gone, that is what I read everywhere, from websites to posters.
Considered the obsolescence and the potential for fratricide it makes a lot of sense. Judging from the pictures posted the bulk of the tanks committed were Merkava III and some uparmored Merkava II. A few Merkava IV were used as well.
I have a picture of a Merkava (not sure if II or III) which suffered a catastrophic ammo explosion (turret popped T-72 style and rear hull gone). Needless to say my appreciation for the Abrams ammo storage has increased since then.
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Old March 25th, 2007, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

Quote:
Marcello said:Needless to say my appreciation for the Abrams ammo storage has increased since then.
Hmm, remember that at least one Abrams has been seen with a turret popped away, similarly with a heavily-loaded underground IED, so I'm not sure the bustle storage is a savior in this case...
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Old March 26th, 2007, 10:27 AM

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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

Plasma
I thank its critical one and I go to try to improve the scenario. I know that the question politics has that to be placed in second plain, but hardly a historical acuity only hearing one of the sides. Although to base me in journalistic facts to mount the scenario, in the great majority, Israeli sources!

Returning to the drawing board…
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Old March 26th, 2007, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: IDF vs. Hezbollah guerilla (08/2006)

"similarly with a heavily-loaded underground IED"

Judging from the place the tank was sitting it seems more likely it was due to an HEAT penetration rather than an IED in the middle of the road like for that Abrams.
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