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  #21  
Old April 14th, 2009, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

If you really need them to stay put but cant run change speed to 1 not zero so long as not by a road they are stuck.
Have not tried it but what happens if you call them AUX units & fix them?
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  #22  
Old April 15th, 2009, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Inside the manual you will find anything you need.
Just read it more than once since its not that simple.

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  #23  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

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Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
Inside the manual you will find anything you need.
Just read it more than once since its not that simple.

cheers,
Pyros
What manual are you refering too? Game guide?
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  #24  
Old April 15th, 2009, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

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Originally Posted by Skirmisher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
Inside the manual you will find anything you need.
Just read it more than once since its not that simple.

cheers,
Pyros
What manual are you refering too? Game guide?
There is pretty detailed section in the Game Guide, can't recall the section/pages. I have them printed out for easier reference.
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  #25  
Old April 15th, 2009, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_Deuce View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirmisher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
Inside the manual you will find anything you need.
Just read it more than once since its not that simple.

cheers,
Pyros
What manual are you refering too? Game guide?
There is pretty detailed section in the Game Guide, can't recall the section/pages. I have them printed out for easier reference.

I'm going to have to find some way to print out the entire game guide. I don't own a printer, maybe I can do it at the library.
I have a feeling it's going to take alot of paper though.

I was hoping Pyros wrote a manual on waypoints. While playtesting
his ANZAC Campaign for WW2 I realized his usage of waypoints was quite advanced.
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  #26  
Old April 15th, 2009, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

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Originally Posted by Skirmisher View Post
I'm going to have to find some way to print out the entire game guide. I don't own a printer, maybe I can do it at the library.
I have a feeling it's going to take alot of paper though.

I was hoping Pyros wrote a manual on waypoints. While playtesting
his ANZAC Campaign for WW2 I realized his usage of waypoints was quite advanced.
Here's Pyros' section in pdf format (8 pages).
Attached Files
File Type: zip ADVANCED_WAYPOINTS.zip (810.8 KB, 150 views)
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  #27  
Old April 16th, 2009, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirmisher View Post

I was hoping Pyros wrote a manual on waypoints. While playtesting
his ANZAC Campaign for WW2 I realized his usage of waypoints was quite advanced.
He did and it's included with the game guide !!

There is a quick overview section in the main manual then in BRIGHT YELLOW box at the end you'll find this

Quote:


For a much more detailed discussion about waypoints and their use click HERE


And that takes you to the detailed info Mikes provided to you but it can be accessed independently by looking for ........

WinSPMBT\Game Notes\Images\Waypoints.htm

or

WinSPWW2\Game Notes\Images\Waypoints.htm


IDK what we'd have to do to make that information more accessible.



Don
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  #28  
Old April 16th, 2009, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Quote:
IDK what we'd have to do to make that information more accessible
No the information is easy to find & I thank Pyros for the time, it does take several reads to take in. Also just above the link in the main guide it states
Quote:
4)ANY change to the formation structure of either side of a scenario WILL CANCEL ALL waypoints for both sides so waypoints must be the very last thing that is done. A change to even one unit of either side cancels ALL waypoints

I am a novice but this seems wrong waypoints must be the last thing set on that side but you can buy & cross attach or even reassign units in the other side without adverse effects on waypoints set for the other.
Hence the "trick" of buying them after you have checked AI side is moving as you want by playing with them set to human & computer control.

Also in the guide
Quote:
5] When you initially set you waypoints the "first" waypoint to the game is the one right in front of your formation leader. When it moves, that first hex that will count as 1 waypoint crossed. However, tests have shown that the first turn does not always follow the "rules" so experiment on your own.
Perhaps a note blow by blow would be helpful such as the easiest way around this is.
"Make the map wider than you need deploy units so they will move directly forward placing the first waypoint in the hex they would enter without waypoints (Note this waypoint will be deleted as game deletes one waypoint a turn if not used) Now plot waypoints normaly so waypoint 2 will be the first it should follow."
Getting this part right is important because if it uses one more waypoint than you thought it can throw off the whole path.

I am not sure here might need to place it in hex unit would move to next turn.

There obviously is more intrest in doing this than people thought but loaded several scenerios to see what they have done & many just seem to use basic plotting moving at full speed & as it does not show waypoint numbers not that helpful.

I was hoping the old school would elaborate more or even take the time to do a demo scenerio with text listing the waypoints placed. Realise this would take time but a demo of how to get a vehicle moving flat out switching to 2 hexes a turn & then holding position would be nice.
Or even a quick blow by blow of your thought process when setting up waypoints first like.
Do scout vehicles first as ignore for first 3 turns so set to reinforcements or.
For reinforcements use 1 waypoint a turn is not used so if arrive on turn 6 the first waypoint used is 7.
For basic movement generally.
For fine movement generally.
If want a unit to hold position generally
How to get round APCs picking up troops.
I find the best way is to plot all general movement save then try & get the fine detail.
Blah Blah.
Its basically what has become second nature to you but us rookies well sometimes
Also nobody botherd to answer the question can you force vehicles to unload passengers, a simple no would suffice.
Things like be aware vehicles will disregard waypoints & pick up passengers even if from a diffrent formation if have the carry capacity.
Waypoint following can become erratic once get near enemy or neutral controlled flags.

Looks to me like Suhiir is trying to get some realistic movement like me & I am sure many others have tried but after a few weeks of failing give up which is why new scenerios & Campaigns dont get built. Already scaling mine back & in the end may well just give it up. After all I can't play what I make so may as well just go back to playing the game.
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  #29  
Old April 16th, 2009, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Quote:
4)ANY change to the formation structure of either side of a scenario WILL CANCEL ALL waypoints for both sides so waypoints must be the very last thing that is done. A change to even one unit of either side cancels ALL waypoints

I am a novice but this seems wrong waypoints must be the last thing set on that side but you can buy & cross attach or even reassign units in the other side without adverse effects on waypoints set for the other.
Hence the "trick" of buying them after you have checked AI side is moving as you want by playing with them set to human & computer control.
Wrong or not it's the way the AI works.
And believe me, being a former programmer myself I have a clue how difficult any AI is to create in the first place and ANY attempt to modify it WILL lead to unexpected results. So Andy and Don will no doubt be wise and not even consider trying to modify it unless something something is outright broken, and it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Also in the guide
Quote:
5] When you initially set you waypoints the "first" waypoint to the game is the one right in front of your formation leader. When it moves, that first hex that will count as 1 waypoint crossed. However, tests have shown that the first turn does not always follow the "rules" so experiment on your own.
Perhaps a note blow by blow would be helpful such as the easiest way around this is.
"Make the map wider than you need deploy units so they will move directly forward placing the first waypoint in the hex they would enter without waypoints (Note this waypoint will be deleted as game deletes one waypoint a turn if not used) Now plot waypoints normally so waypoint 2 will be the first it should follow."
Getting this part right is important because if it uses one more waypoint than you thought it can throw off the whole path.

I am not sure here might need to place it in hex unit would move to next turn.
Try to think of it this way.
Turn one - Game removes waypoint one from each path.
Turn two - Game removes waypoint two from each path.
Etc.
Since any reinforcements you add that don't start the game on-map will be added turn one, or later, you need to create a stack of waypoints directly in front of the formation leader so it crosses a waypoint the first time it moves. So if you had the reinforcement arrive turn ten (10) you need to place eleven (11) waypoints directly in front of it.
Once a formation crosses it's first valid waypoint (11 in this case) it will follow the waypoint pathing until fired on or it reaches the end of the path.

Now, if a unit is fired on it will stop and do battle, but each turn another waypoint will be removed from it's list. Once the fight it is over it will attempt to move to the next valid waypoint.
Example :
Formation arrives as a reinforcement turn 10, waypoint 1 thru 10 have already been removed from it's que so it attempts to head to waypoint 11. If waypoint 11 isn't directly in front of it, it will attempt to follow the easiest path from it's current location directly to waypoint 11.
On turn 15 one of your scout units fires on the formation, it deploys turn 16, kills the scout turn 17, then reloads turn 18 since there's nothing else to kill. Waypoints 16, 17, and 18 have been removed from it's que while it was deploying and fighting so it will take the most direct, easiest, path toward waypoint 19.

That help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
I was hoping the old school would elaborate more or even take the time to do a demo scenerio with text listing the waypoints placed. Realise this would take time but a demo of how to get a vehicle moving flat out switching to 2 hexes a turn & then holding position would be nice.
OK, to do the example you gave you'd have to experiment a bit (of course) but basically you'd set six waypoints (since a formation leader will attempt to cross three per turn if possible - you COULD use just two, but the more you use the finer the degree of control you have) places such that by the time it crosses the third and sixth it's movement allowance for the turn has been used up.

Then you set the next three waypoints two in one hex and the third in an adjacent one - thus the formation leader crosses three waypoints in two hexes - moving two hexes that turn.

Last you place three waypoints in one hex (possibly the one it ended in the previous turn) so it crosses them without the need to move - the formation leader remains stationary.

Doing this will result in the formation doing more-or-less what you want, you WILL have to let a turn run, save the game, load turning both sides to player control, and check to see if it did what you wanted. If not tweak as needed to get the result you want.

This is one reason so few people do much advance waypoint work in scenarios...it's tedious, annoying, and requires many, many test runs to get "right".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Do scout vehicles first as ignore for first 3 turns so set to reinforcements or.
Not necessarily.
Run some tests, see where they go most often, place waypoint four (4) close to there. They'll get back "on track".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
How to get round APCs picking up troops
Well I know one way
1) Buy the APC's and troops as separate formations. Make sure to purchase the passengers before the APC's so they'll move first.
2) Make sure you have a player unit placed on the movement path of the APC unit where you want it to drop troops (have to use a "fixed" unit with little to no movement speed to make sure they player doesn't move it elsewhere).
3) Take your best guess how long it will take the AI to kill whatever unit you used to force it to stop and deploy.
4) Create the "next" waypoint, the one that will be valid after the battle, for the passenger formation as close to the hex they'll be dropped at, or wind up in, as possible.
5) Create the "next" waypoint, the one that will be valid after the battle, for the APC formation heading a different direction from the way the passengers will move.
6) Since the passenger formation moves first it will move away from the APC's - thus when the APC's try to move they will not be in the same hex as the passengers - and won't (generally) move to pick them up since their next valid waypoint is a different direction.

Again, not easy or elegant, but doable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Also nobody bothered to answer the question can you force vehicles to unload passengers, a simple no would suffice.
See the above example for the only way I've found to force passenger unloading - if someone has another I'd love to hear it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
...I am sure many others have tried but after a few weeks of failing give up which is why new scenarios & Campaigns don't get built.
Making anything other then a basic "let the AI banzai charge" scenario is a LOT of work. Even if you know "how". This is probably the main reason so few get made.

At least that's my best guess
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  #30  
Old April 16th, 2009, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Help on controlling the AI please

Hi Suhiir thanks for answering going out so just a brief note
Originally Posted by Imp
Quote:
4)ANY change to the formation structure of either side of a scenario WILL CANCEL ALL waypoints for both sides so waypoints must be the very last thing that is done. A change to even one unit of either side cancels ALL waypoints


I am a novice but this seems wrong waypoints must be the last thing set on that side but you can buy & cross attach or even reassign units in the other side without adverse effects on waypoints set for the other.
Hence the "trick" of buying them after you have checked AI side is moving as you want by playing with them set to human & computer control.

Quote:
Wrong or not it's the way the AI works.
And believe me, being a former programmer myself I have a clue how difficult any AI is to create in the first place and ANY attempt to modify it WILL lead to unexpected results. So Andy and Don will no doubt be wise and not even consider trying to modify it unless something something is outright broken, and it isn't.
I was not refering to wrong as needs fixing or asking for but was refering to the fact if you buy forces for the player side after setting waypoints they do not disappear.
Have not checked if it upsets them somehow but in this post by Pyros its what he says to do
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...134#post422134

Therefore one of them must be wrong it either effects the waypoints in which case this post is wrong or vica versa
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