.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

BCT Commander- Save $8.00
winSPWW2- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 2: The Ascension Wars

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 21st, 2004, 07:45 AM

Zooko Zooko is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 666
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Zooko is on a distinguished road
Default pentagram diplomacy

Here's a good way to play multiplayer that fixes the multiplayer problem of "If I kill you then he wins.".

In one-on-one, (or in one-team vs. one-team), you are always willing to expend your resources (i.e., send your army into deadly danger) if you think it will deplete your opponent's resources more.

But with three or more players, if you send your army to destroy player A's army, then player B is going to mop up both of you.

This encourages too much waiting-and-building-up strategy. I hate that. I want to see some good battlefield action and not just fifty turns of conquering independents and building up your super-tech.

Here's a way to play a 5-player game that has both plenty of combat and also interesting diplomacy:

For scoring purposes, arrange the players into a pentagram:


Alice Bob


Charles Doug


Eliza


That's some crappy ASCII art but hopefully you get the idea.

Now the scoring rule is simple: you win when both of the people opposite you are dead.

That's it!

Now what about the people next to you on the pentagram? Well, they aren't your enemies exactly, but they aren't precisely your friends either. It can lead to some very fun diplomacy.

Sometime after I move into my new house (Nov. 1), I'll host a game with these rules. There will only be four slots available, since I'm calling first dibs on one of the five slots. :-)

I'll also use the latest Version of Zen's conceptual balance mod. I like it!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 21st, 2004, 09:16 AM
Chazar's Avatar

Chazar Chazar is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: within 200km of Ulm
Posts: 919
Thanks: 27
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Chazar is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

Sounds very interesting, but how do you cope if those nations cannot reach each other?

How do you extend this sytem to 7 or 9 nations?
Would it be more sensible to retain 2 specific nations to kill (which in turn also try to kill you), but which would lead to two nations being neither you enemy nor someone who shares your goal?

Or would it be more sensible to have non-mutual enemy relationships, i.e. something like
A vs. C,D
B vs. D,E
C vs. E,F
D vs. F,G
E vs. G,A
F vs. A,B
G vs. B,C

so that A hunts C,D; is hunted by E,F; and shares 1/2 of it goal with B,G? It is sort of bad here that C and D play a different role, since C hunts both of A's hunters. It should be a system where every role occurs twice equally...
(having three goals seems bad to me for 7 players)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 21st, 2004, 10:52 AM
Gandalf Parker's Avatar

Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Vacaville, CA, USA
Posts: 13,736
Thanks: 341
Thanked 479 Times in 326 Posts
Gandalf Parker is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

There are a couple of maps that make that easy to do. Designed for that type of play.
__________________
-- DISCLAIMER:
This game is NOT suitable for students, interns, apprentices, or anyone else who is expected to pass tests on a regular basis. Do not think about strategies while operating heavy machinery. Before beginning this game make arrangements for someone to check on you daily. If you find that your game has continued for more than 36 hours straight then you should consult a physician immediately (Do NOT show him the game!)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 21st, 2004, 01:11 PM
Cainehill's Avatar

Cainehill Cainehill is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,997
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cainehill is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

Quote:
Gandalf Parker said:
There are a couple of maps that make that easy to do. Designed for that type of play.
Theater of war might be perfect for it, with 6 nations. That's a map I've always wanted to have a game on... It'd give a very different kind of play, though I think the .map file would need to be editted for six players so each started in a separate sphere, and also to modify the victory point conditions.
__________________
Wormwood and wine, and the bitter taste of ashes.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 21st, 2004, 02:58 PM
Ed Kolis's Avatar

Ed Kolis Ed Kolis is offline
General
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Posts: 4,547
Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Ed Kolis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

Quote:
Chazar said:
Or would it be more sensible to have non-mutual enemy relationships, i.e. something like
A vs. C,D
B vs. D,E
C vs. E,F
D vs. F,G
E vs. G,A
F vs. A,B
G vs. B,C

This sounds very much like the "Paranoia" games over at SE4 PBW... except in those, you only had one target (and in one of the games, your target was known only to you! )
__________________
The Ed draws near! What dost thou deaux?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 21st, 2004, 03:33 PM

Zooko Zooko is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 666
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Zooko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

I really don't know how to generalize to other numbers of players than five.

Also, I don't know what to do if the enemy nations can't reach each other.

You could get your five players lined up, start the game, reveal the location of your starting capitol province, and then assign enemies so that all enemies can reach each other without going through friends.

What maps do you recommend, Gandalf?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 21st, 2004, 04:32 PM
Cainehill's Avatar

Cainehill Cainehill is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,997
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cainehill is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

...A...B

C.........D

...E...F


You keep it to where each only needs two specific nations, the ones that are one apart. A -> D,E B -> C,F

This would work wonderfully with a Theater of War game, I should think, and only requiring 2 capitals to win would keep the game from going on and on.

(Edit : periods added since it wants to collapse spaces.)
__________________
Wormwood and wine, and the bitter taste of ashes.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 21st, 2004, 05:48 PM
Chazar's Avatar

Chazar Chazar is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: within 200km of Ulm
Posts: 919
Thanks: 27
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Chazar is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

[Post completely edited for symmetry reasons:]

Well, this is for 6...but I am interested in 7.

What about this one:

A hunts C,D
B hunts D,E
C hunts E,F
D hunts F,G
E hunts G,A
F hunts A,B
G hunts B,C

So A is hunted by E&F, both being hunted by C who is A's prey...

So each nation needs to hunt the hunter of its own hunters. Furthermore, there are no 4-cycles and each nation is contained in a 3-cycle.

Therefore, alliances are highly unstable. The game is also likely to end very soon once the first nation got killed, so sitting back and developing is severly discouraged by this victory condition!
Diplomacy, on the other hand, rules, since it is unimported who killed the killed nations.
(Note that I am merely talking about victory conditions and do not intend to place any other restrictions on alliances, etc. Every player is just assigned his own private mission!)



Does this make sense to obtain a good game? I figured that 4-cycles must be prohibited so that there are no obvious alliances, while 3-cycles rule out alliances easily. What else would be good rules for such a victory-condition?

Here is a picture showing above's hunting relation for 7 players:
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 22nd, 2004, 07:45 AM

Zooko Zooko is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 666
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Zooko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

A big difference between this 7-player graph and the 5-player case is that in the 5-player (pentagram) game, you are always your enemy's enemy. That is, if I can win by killing you (and one other person), then you can win by killing me (and one other person).

With this 7-player game diagrammed above, I want to protect myself from my two attackers, but I don't get any victory points for conquering them.

I guess the problem is if I were playing in this 7-player game, I wouldn't know what strategy to use!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 22nd, 2004, 07:47 AM

Zooko Zooko is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 666
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Zooko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: pentagram diplomacy

Well, Gandalf hasn't (yet) recommended a map to use for this kind of game. I'm partial to the Cradle map. It is good looking, has interesting barriers -- rivers and mountains -- and I appreciate that the map image lets me know the actual contents of the provinces (e.g. farmlands, extra-magical-provinces, etc.).

If I were to organize a 5-player pentagram game on the Cradle map, I would want to do it were each player reveals the location of their capitol and then gets assigned enemies so that all enemies are as close to each other as possible.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.