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  #721  
Old October 19th, 2017, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/indo...-battle-tanks/

Quote:

The Indonesian Army (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Darat, TNI-AD) has taken delivery of the first eight of 61 Leopard 2A4 third-generation main battle tanks (MBT), according to executives of German defense contractor Rheinmetall, who recently spoke to IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly during a company symposium on land forces.

Rheinmetall is currently in the process of upgrading 61 Leopard 2 MBTs to the so-called Revolution standard, an urban warfare upgrade package that requires a number of specific modifications requested by the Indonesian military to make the tank more suitable for urban combat.

Overall, the TNI-AD had ordered 103 used Leopard 2A4, designated Leopard 2 RI (Republic of Indonesia) specifically outfitted with bustle-mounted air conditioning systems to suit Indonesia’s Indonesia’s tropical climate.
The problem with information about equipment before they are actually delivered is that they are often proved wrong which generates more work correcting what was entered

http://defence-blog.com/army/indones...rder-ifvs.html

Quote:
t this time, Indonesia has received 14 Leopard 2A4 main battle tank, 6 Marder 1A3 Infantry Fighting Vehicle, 2 Leopard ARV armoured recovery vehicle, 2 Leopard AEV armoured engineer vehicle and 1 Leopard AVLB armoured vehicle-launched bridge.

Indonesia has acquired 103 Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks (MBTs), 42 upgraded Marder 1A3 infantry fighting vehicles, and 11 armoured recovery and engineering vehicles from surplus German Army stocks.
I would much prefer getting information like this a month or two after delivery than speculation about what " might " be a year or two before. The OOB has been corrected to reflect the new information

They are not however " graddads 2A4"


Don
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  #722  
Old October 19th, 2017, 11:58 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Remember there were two separate orders/batches (Two orders in 2012.) for these Leopards the first batch was delivered between 2013-2014 these would be covered by the already entered Leopard derived from German UNIT 033 of which they received 42 tanks. Even your source matches by the numbers what SIPRI has reported as 61 tanks to be delivered between 2017-2018 these are the Leopard 2RI tanks and second batch.

Bottom-line is simply CHANGE to add a modified German Leopard Revolution tank as the Leopard 2RI.

Well strike the proceeding sentence as I just checked the OOB. Now recommend the following to fix this problem...

A. CHANGE/UNIT 017 LEOPARD 2RI/START DATE 6/2018 vice 6/2014/This represents the second batch of tanks per OUR refs./The LEOPARD RI is NOT a fully optionally equipped tank as the full GERMAN REVOLUTION version. There should be slight deductions in additional armor and FCS.//

B. ADD/LEOPARD 2A4+/USE GERMAN UNIT 033 as was submitted in 2013 w/o modification./START DATE 6/2014/Again these are to original Batch 1 tanks ordered and delivered btwn 2013-2014 as noted in my last post, the above and the below refs./There were political delays within the German government that could've killed the deal as what happened earlier with the Dutch.//
http://www.dw.com/en/indonesia-tank-...ons/a-16357173
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-tanks-013042/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/sept...y_2509133.html
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indon...29571/page-164


From ref. 2...
“We are buying Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 2 Revolution models that are already modified and have new armaments…. All the political and administrative processes are complete, we are in the production phase…. We can use them as soon as they arrive…. The memorandum of understanding will stipulate the transfer of technology and the provision of spare parts.”

From ref.4 see first couple of entries.

The LEOPARD 2A4+ was the "stepping stone" from LEOPARD 2A4 > LEOPARD 2A4+ > LEOPARD 2 REVOLUTION.

I don't know what more I can add at this point except, I need to get ready for work.

Regards,
Pat
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  #723  
Old October 19th, 2017, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Pat......"GERMAN UNIT 033" is a L55 2A6 not a 2A4. I have not found a single source that indicates 2a4's were fitted with L55's and no source I've found describes Indonesian Leos as anything but 2A4's so the added unit is going to be an L44 2A4
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  #724  
Old October 19th, 2017, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

BTW: isn't it worth for German 2A6 and 2A7 to be fitted with icons with longer guns, than 2A4?.


There are at least 21 icons in 4 Shp files

as measured from the front of the extractor to the tip of the barrel it IS longer than the 2A4's....not quite perfect - but "close enough"

So the answer is NO it's not "worth it" unless I have a lot more free time on my hands than I do now.
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  #725  
Old October 19th, 2017, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

The LEO 2A4+ (Upgrade pkg. to the 2A6 standard.) and the LEO REVOLUTION can both be upgraded to the L55.

I have to believe they did this with both based on the DID ref. from the C&C of the Indo Army.

See my quote from ref. 2. However if you don't feel comfortable with giving the LEO 2A4+ the L55, then leave it with at least the most advanced German L44 as being the only change made from German UNIT 033 the rest is definitely part of the upgrade pkg.

Regards,
Pat
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  #726  
Old October 19th, 2017, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

OK Pat you show me a source that specifically states the Indonesian 2A4's are fitted with the L55 gun and I will change it

read this

RUAG Leopard 2 Upgrade
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...rd_upgrade.htm

Quote:
"Upgraded tanks retain a 120-mm smoothbore gun of the Pz 87/Leopard 2A4"

Revolution Main battle tank
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/revolution.htm

Quote:
The Revolution MBT retains a fully-stabilized 120-mm / L44 smoothbore gun of the Leopard 2A4.
FURTHER

Look at the distance between the front of the extractor and the end of barrel of the main gun on the photo in post 721 and this 2A6 L55 in Afganistan



721...an Indonesian 2A4--- is an L44
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  #727  
Old Yesterday, 02:56 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Don you're absolutely right they both do have the 120mm L44 MG's which is VERY obvious in the below video ref. I think also we can agree information can change over time. The earlier articles I looked into concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+ upgrade pkg. lead me to believe the configuration would be the same as the LEOPARD 2A6 in this case per GERMAN UNIT 033.

So I dug deeper as I know you expected me to and I'm not only on the wrong tank but country as well concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+. In both my Mozilla/MSN and Google search, I saw some hits for the 2A4+ being the same as the REVOLUTION but those mostly from bloggers and not very many, however, from more traditional sites and some blogs, the LEOPARD 2A4(M)CAN came up repeatedly, of course this being from Canada.

I think this to be correct based on the below video of Indonesian Army units being involved in an exercise with both tanks and the MARDER's they ordered and more.

What struck me is that the LEOPARD 2A4+ turret seemed larger with some subtle differences as well compared to a standard LEOPARD 2A4. The look is definitely more in line with the Canadian 2A4(M)CAN UNIT O35 as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1S5bgcrw2s

Also I'm not so sure about that start date now for the LEOPARD RI as submitted, unless we consider the fact it's part of an operational acceptance trial (From the video above.) which, is very plausible and not unusual for a country to do when they receive new equipment to verify it meets all the contracts specs etc. etc. as agreed to.

Some already know this, but for the newer folks simply there is "NO HARM NO FOUL" here, it's just what we do. Thanks for the "push" it felt good to get back to my "old" standards.

Now for some much needed sleep so that @#$%^&* cold doesn't bounce back on me.

Regards,
Pat
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  #728  
Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I'll assume no issues with my last post. I wanted to get a time frame on the video I submitted in my last post and it was 11 August 2017 this next is from 15 August 2017 as posted. At 1:19 into the video I paused it to get a count of how many LEOPARD 2RI tanks I saw and that number is 8. That makes sense for the first shipped number of LEOPARD 2RI tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRnBvX444g

Only doing this to try and "frame" a timeline for you to work from for a start date.

I'm still thinking that they are under an "operational evaluation" period as I discussed in my last post as well.

For what it's worth, I'm not thinking anything before JAN 2018 earliest. I'll stick my neck out further, and suggest that the LEOPARD 2RI should be operational/accepted by JUN 2018 latest.

Concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+, I've done some more checking this morning since my last post, and I have to tell you personally, I'm satisfied that the Canadian LEOPARD 2A4(M)CAN is a 2A4+ and is the correct tank to use for the Indonesian LEOPARD 2A4+. Again as I posted in my last. The start date should still be good as well as JAN 2014.

Just trying to cover my tracks here as best as I can based on my more current data since I submitted the LEOPARD 2A4+ back in 2013.

Hope this was more help than hindrance to you. And it's that time of day again, so I hope all have a good day and weekend.

Regards,
Pat
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  #729  
Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBi30pDidJE

The Leos are around minute 5
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  #730  
Old Today, 02:38 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

The movie was good and watched the whole thing. Those RANGERS (Saw the patch on the uniforms.) in the Command Center seemed pretty motivated as did the rest of their troops. So after checking the OOB...

1. Are the RANGERS in the OOB under local named version?

2. Need to add Heavy Sniper teams to the OOB. In sniper portion of the movie looked like that was a BARRET or very similar 50. Cal Heavy Sniper rifle.

3. Something that caught my eye also was, on the MARDER, from a frontal view, it looked like to the left and above the 20mm was a single tube launcher for a SPIKE ATGW. To illustrate, the picture below left shows what I thought I saw in the video. The picture on the right shows the same MARDER by type that's German and you can clearly see the SPIKE Launcher is in the same position.

Indonesian... German...
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ID:	14988

Maybe I shouldn't have watched the movie!?!

What I do know somebody better get their "DONKEY" tough day later at work and CINCLANTHOME knows about it.

Regards,
Pat
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