German Motorcycles and their Units

[PanzerBob]

Good day,

I few days ago, after updating to 2.5, I was doing my usual German OOB's mods, such as adding Befehlswagens, and a few WHAT IF's for post May 45 scenarios and a thought occurred to me. The icon for the Kraftrads was only one MC sidecar, so would it be more realistic if the Units were modified to reflect this. So I changed the four Unit available.

-I gave them 3 men, max on a MC sidecar.
-Reduced the Hand grenades and MG ammo.
-And reduced the cost accordingly.
-Formations were changed to a section, 3 MC's and a Squad of 10 MC's.

I'm presently using 2 of these Squads as my KG's Recce, and the results were grand, Now that these are no longer 10 man Units, they are a lot more effective in their intended role, the temptation to use then as infantry is no longer there, and they can cover more ground with the MARK 1 Eyeball. Hope this idea is of interest,

Man I love this game!!

Cheers, Bob

[DRG]

Let's put it this way. Before I would say this is a great idea or a bad idea there would need to be further testing on the effects of a change like that on, not only overall game play but how that would affect existing sceanrios that use MC as well.

It's something to mull over during the summer

Don

[blitzkreig]

Hello all.

An interesting idea. I can see why you did this and can see why this kind of formation would be of use. There are quite a few sceanrios featuring German MC units however. I would like to raise a few gameplay/realsim points for debate though. The Germans used MC in several ways:

1. Attached to indidual units and formations as dispatch riders and messengers. Not really relevant in game terms.

2. In MC coys in the Recce btl of motorised formations.

3. In MC companies in early war (1939-1941) Schutzen and Kradshutzen btls.

In cases 2&3 the MCs were used as a form of APC or Truck. They were a means to transport the users rapidly around the battlefield before they dismounted and fought as infantry. The MCs withdrwaing out of range. The Krad coys were also equiped with sevral MMGs and mortars both 50 & 81mm to support them in these tasks.

The current use of MC units in the game doesn't reflect this perfectly but does allow them to be used in coy size units reasonably well.

I would like to see a unit of bobs size for recon use reflecting a detachment from the Recce coys in addtion to the current MC or krad coys. Not as a replacemnt. I know there are limited slots left in the German oob so if this doesn't happen perhaps we should leave things as is? what do people think?

[PanzerBob]

Good day,

Both responces are great, I do like the idea of having both types of MC units available for the exact reasons as stated above by Ian. (Especially for early war play.) Mod OOB's are saveable, so for home grown games this should fine, restoreing regular OOB's for crafted scenarios ETC.

Purely for the look of the Units on the ground the MC is the only unit which at present it's icon doesn't reflect it accurately, it should be multiple MC's, as it is a 10 man unit. Which is what led me to try this Mod.

I will keep you abreast of how it works out for me over the next few months of campaigning.

I'm also going to work on a Unit mix, along the lines Ian suggested.

-some single MC units for recce work
-somehow intigrated into the Kraftrad Kp structure
-find or create a multi-MC icon.

I will begin work on this in ernest, once I recieve my CD version which has just shipped.

I don't neccessarily expect this idea to make a future version, Don, it's just a change I thought others might enjoy or benefit from. One of the many charms of this game is ability to amend or invent units and see want would have happened.

I have a few other What if's I'm working on, more on those later.

Cheers, Bob

[Shan]

I also wondered how to get closer to real-life use of MC scouts. As you pointed out, the motorcycles themselves were just a rapid means of transport and the units would fight dismounted as soon as contact is made - therefore, I use armed MC transports to carry around light infantry squads and scouts, that way both roles can be caried out.

Side note: the losses of motorcycles with and without sidecars were tremendous, usually higher than the number of cars or trucks lost, therefore reflecting the widespread use of MCs, not only in Kradschuetzen units - e.g., in Poland, until 10/10/39, they lost 5523 MCs, 1492 of them complete write-offs, whereas during the same timeframe they lost 4052 trucks and 1949 cars, 1595 and 991 being unrepairable, respectively. (source: Hahn, Fritz: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1939-1945); in France, 7231 MCs, 2996 cars and 5227 trucks were lost; note also that this includes mechanical breakdowns, vehicles lost in accidents, stuck in the mud, etc... (a vehicle at that time was built for a 10.000km life - which it hardly ever reached anyway)

[chuckfourth]

Hi Shan
I find it easier to just change the motorcycles size from 2 to 1, they can then both move many hexes and fight on equal terms with regular infantry. But of course idealy the motercycles should be dismountable (not to mention bicycles)
Regards Chuck

[narwan]

Hi Bob, if you haven't done so already you may want to checkout the Italian OB. They have both the full size MC squads for combat operations and small (I think 2 man) recon MC units. These are size 0 and extremely useful for reconnaissance. I use them regularly when playing the Italians.

Narwan

[Shan]

Sure its easier to change them to size 1 - but is it realistic? They you have the same size of infantry - in fact, super-fast-moving infantry that rules the battlefield... so I'd reject this option. The downside of my solution with size 2 MC transports and size 0-1 scouts/inf passengers, however, is also that if drawing enemy fire or driving into a minefield, the crew dismounts and sometimes takes heavy casualties, as does the unarmored bike, but hey, that's what I buy them for... better than losing a tank. I also experimented with single bikes - those will arguably be OK with size 1, IF they are only armed with a pistol - otherwise you got the 1-man Rambo biker---

[chuckfourth]

Hi Shan
Well as super fast moving infantry they do take a lot of casualties when they get hit moving fast which balances them out a bit. But your correct, Ive used them to "unrealisticly" swarm armour on occasion.
Wouldnt it be better to model the transports as size 1? italian tankettes for instance are size 1 and are bigger.
Best Chuck.

[Shan]

ok, the size of the units can be discussed, of course. I don't have the game accessible at the moment - but I guess a jeep/Kuebelwagen has size 2, so an MC should be smaller - but even if they're size 2 - I don't think that makes a big difference anyway. And the casualties I take when I drive into an ambush/minefield at full speed are usually quite light - especially if you have experienced units - most times I am able to rally hem and pull back and/or pop smoke, and voilà, mission accomplished: I know where the enemy is and can deal with hima ccordingly .