Point costs and balance

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

On a related subject it seems Vision 40 adds a blanket 100 points to the cost of any unit. While Thermal Imaging IS very nice ... is it 100 points worth of nice?

Have you ever played a tank battle as Iraq vs USA in 1991?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

On a related subject it seems Vision 40 adds a blanket 100 points to the cost of any unit. While Thermal Imaging IS very nice ... is it 100 points worth of nice?

As I said in another thread to another poster I am quite willing to cut newbies some slack when they make off the wall statements unless they show up with "attitude" but I am less forgiving of experienced players who should know better.

Please show me an EXACT example where adding TI gives a 100 point boost. Pick a unit that has no TI, give it TI then post it here showing the cost calculator gives it 100 points more.

You won't be able to because IT DOES NOT and you could have found that out in 1/4 of the time it took you to type that.

Typically TI adds 80 points ( armour or infantry slight variations occur due to experience and morale factors but it won't add up to 100) and if your tank has it and the other guy doesn't and the visibiity is 10 he's toast so it's well worth it. If visibity is 40 then "Waaaaaaaa I paid too much for this."

It IS getting old trying to make everyone happy so would you PLEASE do me the courtesy of doing a bit of research first before making unsupportable blanket statements like that in the future ?

Thanks

Don

[Lankinen]

Somewhat experienced as a winspmbt player, i take it strange, that a radar get's you only 4pts increase in 200pts unit as i mentioned before.

I do know, that it makes a difference, big time. More like a 100pts than 4pts.

Putting that aside, 204pts might be justified cost to that radar using AA gun of sweden 2011, but 200pts for it without radar is a joke. It does not even have vision 40 and is alltogether quite a crappy gun. Low kill + low range. Range is very important for a gun like that in my opinion.

More like 50-60 pts worth if you ask me. (double the points with a radar, or add 100pts.)

Vision 40 in ob plane is quite nice, but it's situational, sometimes you do not really need it, combine taking one of both.

But in those examples i think there was an EW boost also.

And if it's between UAV and regular plane, then i think the UAV status adds some pts also.

Given the airstrikes, i hardly see any use of them. Only planes i would use in a serious games would be b-2 and raptor. Others are just not good in my opinion.

Russia got some good ones, but are easilly dropped by the top anti aircraft weapons. (Those that got 8 PGM's in one slot.)

(We play it so, that if you take planes / gunships you have to tell beforehand, because it's quite frustrating to take SAM's when opponent does not have any air sorties used at all, even if tere are some to choose.)

What kind of point level you guys use playing WinSPMBT ?

I am used to play something between 10 000pts and 20 000pts.

Never played a game with more than 20 000pts.

Some time ago, i used to play under 10 000pts.

BTW for IFV's, i really do not think it as a bonus to be able to carry infantry, because a normal APC can do that with cheaper cost also. Also in my opinion, not all infantry needs an APC and infantry is so overpowered that we limit their numbers, so i always take the maximum number allowed.

Also, we have been using "you have to get tanks for x pts" rule, because in my opinion, if i want to take as strong army as i can in winspMBT, i do not take tanks at all. I take only apc's, artillery and infantry. There is nothing a MBT can do in my tactics better than infantry cannot. Massed inf-ATGM always have been better hunting tanks than MBT in my experience. In later patche's infantry was even more overpowered compared to tanks and such.

What kind of "rules" you guys set for your winspmbt games ?

Commonly used in my end have been limiting infantry, size 0 units, artillery, some units that are too good or gamebreaking, or just banning them (like b-2), banning cluster / bomblet using artillery + rocket launchers, telling if you have gunships/air strikes, and setting a minimum pts to be used in tanks.

This is because, without limiting the purchases, the armies you can field in the game are just ridiculous if opponent did not take as overpowered army, the game is pretty much decided with the unit choises alone.

How do you guys set your victory hexes in your games ?

Also, we use a rule that size 0 unit cannot take victory hexes and you have to have gun in your vehicle to do so. Infantry units that have lost over 50% of their men also cannot take hexes.

What you guys/gals think about these rules ? (where in map and in what formations / do you stack them together etc.)

(Almost typed only guys, but made me think, that maybe there are some female players out there, even i suspect there ain't.)

[DRG]

If the problems you detail were as common as you think they are we would be inundated with similar complaints but more importantly, we would have noticed this ourselves long ago

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Lanniken,

1. Did you bother reading any of what I supplied in way of refs concerning UAV's, otherwise you wouldn't be questioning the vision issue. These UAV's are not cheap and cost millions of dollars in the real world, doesn't it make sense they'd be expensive in the game world also!?!

2. APC sounds more like a tactical decision on your part then a game issue, in regards again to vision, several 100 thousand dollars plus for more advanced systems. In the last Patch Post (See thread.) for example I pointed out the LAV-AD had a FC circuit card that by itself cost 100K+. This is the reality of the modern battle field. One of the oldest battlefield axioms is sort of "He who shoots first wins" this is the why countries invest so much in this and other tech. The IFV is in most modern armies a tenant of the "combined arms" theory.

3. The U.S. didn't sign the treaty in banning the use of CM munitions along with other "civilized" countries. So "BOMBS AWAY" and "INCOMING"!!

4. B-2 and other shoot down issues, S-200, 300, 400, and PATRIOT etc. buy them early! One to five game sets AREN'T going to get you the EXPRIENCE you need to make them better. That's why I play 17, 19, 21 or 23 game length campaigns against the AI. Otherwise shoot and prey!

5. DO YOUR RESEARCH OFF LEGITIMATE SITES PLEASE!!!

Regards,
Pat

[Lankinen]

I was not the one to complaint about the cost of UAV's. It was some other poster, and i replied to him/her in my last post about them.

Many of my "statements" i mean winspmbt as a game that might not be as realistic as the real war is. How could it be ?

So, please do not compare my winspmbt stories with real life issues.

But thanks for replies and i would appriciate to read other winspmbt users (a great game!) about those "rules", "what pt cost you plat", "hex" and "is aircrafts worth the pts" questions i asked etc.

Also, those things depend on the map and visibility. In visibility 1, vision is golden! But i usually play high visibility games.

In a desert map where there is no forests or almost anything but desert, tanks rule ok. But in a dense forest map and maps with lots of buildings and forest etc, infantry does rule.

Desert maps are boring so i do not play them quite often, i like maps with forests and such.

But i have to say, infantry is "crap" in those desert maps. No hiding places etc, and opponent can shoot from miles away. In a dense forest, you may even do some assaulting against MBT's and stuff. If opponents is even willing to bring his MBT's to a dense forest.

(So maybe i should have told i do not play desert maps when i made that infantry statement against the armored options.)

Vision 40 in modern battles is very good yes, but for me, i'm satisfied with vision 40 MBT's over IFV's. It's my opinion.

If i can pick between 2 IFV's and 1 MBT with vision 40, it's not a hard choise for me to choose. (1 MBT _always_.)

(And in some cases, i can pick from 2 tanks vs 1 IFV with vision 40, so i pick the tanks and have some vision 40 MBT's as a backup.)

Also, i do apprieciate very much that this great game is made free and thank the programmers, and i'm not complaining in my point of view as much as the response might be thinking.

Also, my facts in this matter are my WINSPMBT experience, i do not link it with anything else. I research my WINSPMBT matters with WINSPMBT alone and WINSPMBT is my truth about WINSPMBT etc. (So, i do my research of this game by playing it, or browsing the army lists.)

BTW, i do not play against AI, i play against human opponents, it's far more satisfying with a human general as an opponent. So, it's 1 game with the troops i pick.

I think i have tested those you have suggested, and the pantsyr seems little bit better against b-2 still :/

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

As I said in another thread to another poster I am quite willing to cut newbies some slack when they make off the wall statements unless they show up with "attitude" but I am less forgiving of experienced players who should know better.

Please show me an EXACT example where adding TI gives a 100 point boost. Pick a unit that has no TI, give it TI then post it here showing the cost calculator gives it 100 points more.

You won't be able to because IT DOES NOT and you could have found that out in 1/4 of the time it took you to type that.

Typically TI adds 80 points ( armour or infantry slight variations occur due to experience and morale factors but it won't add up to 100) and if your tank has it and the other guy doesn't and the visibiity is 10 he's toast so it's well worth it. If visibity is 40 then "Waaaaaaaa I paid too much for this."

It IS getting old trying to make everyone happy so would you PLEASE do me the courtesy of doing a bit of research first before making unsupportable blanket statements like that in the future ?

Thanks

Don

My apologies, I SHOULD have done some research before making a blanket statement about a +100 point cost addition.

I stand (can't sit because I have Dons' teeth marks in my arse) corrected

[daferg]

Remind me never to complain about this game. Never ever ever. In fact I am kinda nervous about just posting this.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by daferg

Remind me never to complain about this game. Never ever ever. In fact I am kinda nervous about just posting this.

Complain away, just make sure that (unlike me) you face your facts straight before you do