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  #761  
Old January 11th, 2018, 03:48 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

From two posts ago, my apologies, LUCH is the design company. Alright I'll do it to me, for you - !

How to do this? First you must read the provided info, what it is, the purpose of, different calibers available of the type, most provide charts and platforms used on.

I'm splitting up the main ref, which will be at the bottom of this. The sources are the Ukraine's sales and defense industry sites as both are together on the site. The following are taken from that site and treated individually.

1. The 30mm ZTM-1 automatic cannon and the ZTM-2 have become the main weapon of choice for the Ukraine intended for APC/ACV/AIFV/IFV (Specific application equipage shown. This applies to all the rest as well as posted.) and attack helos as noted. Ukraine has mounted these with the associated turrets and others as indicated within this article. Currently in service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...-ztm-1-i-ztm-2


2. The man-portable anti-tank guided missile system SKIF this is their "Heavy Hitter" at 130mm and 152mm calibers. This is a general all around system from anti-personnel to bunker busting. Pretty impressive from some videos I've seen. Coming into or recently has entered service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...-kompleks-skif


3. The anti-tank missile system BARYE designed to be used with the SHKVAL turret (Like #1 above.) on the platforms as noted. Currently in service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kompleks-barer


4. “CORSAR” light portable missile system close in support system in service with Max. Rng. of 2500m.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...mpleks--korsar


5. “Bar’er-V” helicopter antitank missile system as currently used on their attack helos. This is an upgrade issue for the Ukraine OOB on their helos. This is a long range, heavy 130mm ATGM with a very high hit probability. In service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...mpleks-barer-v

6. The anti-tank precision-guided missile R-111 STUGNA designed for 100mm/115mm platform weapons as noted in the article. In service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...-100-mm-stugna

7. The anti-tank guided missile systems KOMBAT and KONUS these are the "main events" with the difference being simply that KOMBAT is fully operational in the platforms as listed in para. This is where the Russian REFLEX & BASTION are also addressed in comparison and otherwise. A very effective system that is getting a lot of attention. This missile will be if I remember correctly, be part of the Pakistani deal with the Ukraine to update the 300+ T-80UD tanks Pakistan bought from the Ukraine.
KONUS is also available to meet 120mm NATO standard tank guns. Though it also supports the Ukraine's T-84-120 YATAGAN which is in service as a Test Bed platform. It should be noted, at the time it was considered one of the more advanced MBT's in the world. Both in service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kombat-i-konus
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84_yatagan.htm
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2807.html


It's getting late the next three weapons cover the 100mm/105mm and 115mm ATGM systems. REFLEX should've been phased out of front line service by this past year. Here's the main ref.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruzhenie-i-boepripasi


Alright already touched on this and it'll touch I believe on the topic that the U.S. has lifted the restriction on the Ukraine to buy from defense contractors (U.S.)...
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-se...kraine-2017-12
https://warisboring.com/american-ant...ng-to-ukraine/
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump...ry?id=51235203
http://fortune.com/2017/12/23/trump-...siles-ukraine/


A couple of the refs. above do make the distinction of the "old" versus the "newer" systems. Of the above systems outlined, I believe the "SKIF" to be the oldest (DEC 2008.) though it's been updated. Remember nobody in the West wants to see the Ukraine back under Russian control. They've been receiving a lot of management, engineering and technical assistance before and more so since the Russian incursion.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/2...rmy/#arvlbdata
http://www.usubc.org/site/aerospace-...ade-in-ukraine
https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/...apons-1.354534


Isn't wonderful how conflict spurs innovation?

I've got a busy day later this morning before work, so, Good Night!

Regards,
Pat
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  #762  
Old January 11th, 2018, 08:14 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post

1. The 30mm ZTM-1 automatic cannon and the ZTM-2 have become the main weapon of choice for the Ukraine intended for APC/ACV/AIFV/IFV (Specific application equipage shown. This applies to all the rest as well as posted.) and attack helos as noted. Ukraine has mounted these with the associated turrets and others as indicated within this article. Currently in service.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...-ztm-1-i-ztm-2
I'll go through all this BUT.......

Quote:
The State Enterprise Research and Engineering Complex ‘Precision Mechanics Plant’ in Kamyanets-Podilsky has launched series production of a comprehensive range of hand gun and artillery weapons, including the 30mm ZTM-1 automatic cannon (similar in its outlay design and performance capabilities to the Soviet-designed 30mm 2A72 automatic cannon) and the ZTM-2 automatic cannon (Ukrainian designed equivalent of the Soviet-vintage 2A42).
So ZTM-1 = 30mm 2A72 and ZTM-2 = 2A42 so what I am going to do is rename the existing weapons NOT create 2+ dozen duplicates using the same two weapons under a different name
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  #763  
Old January 11th, 2018, 11:39 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Though still a PITA by degrees, I didn't expect it to be more than what you're doing concerning the ZTM. My concern was to straighten out the what I was seeing as the convoluted mess the whole ATGM/ATGW Ukrainian issue seemed to "nose diving" into. I hope that mission was accomplished to a satisfactory level. Thanks!

Regards,
Pat
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  #764  
Old February 3rd, 2018, 04:13 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Don,
Figured I'd put this here some pictures for you to consider for the Turkish M-60T. I got a little nostalgic and looked back into my first official Patch submission in "The FASTBOAT Patch page" on Pg.1 Post 3 Item A4 and below to M2 and the others below that.. I looked at the bottom of M2 and saw all those posts listed there and it took me a minute to realize they're posts from the this thread on the M-60T but, how confusing it must've been to see that and scratch your head and ask "OK for what Thread does he want me to look at!?!".

What a great upgrade project that was that IMI put together for that tank (They RESET 170 M-60A1 tanks to beyond the M-60A3 TTS. It had a 120mm L44 SB MG installed, NEW advanced FCS/KNIGHT III optics as carried on MERKAVA 4 and "the kicker" was it also was equipped with the same ceramic applique armor as the MERKAVA 4 as well, along with that, it also had Israeli ERA bolt on kits, which is some of the best in the world. These by definition (RESET) were brand new tanks.

But this is where my Turkish nightmare would begin. In fact I'll have to fix it again.

I hope I've improved since then, I liked the way my last flowed especially since that one which is like watching a tennis match, ADD, CHANGE, MODIFY (And isn't that the same as changing it? Well I didn't make that connection until later.) and DELETE. It would start again maybe in a different random order. No wonder Don would lose some hair back then!?!

Well anyway it could use a couple of new pictures as I believe we have two M-60T tanks in the game. So I'll leave you with 4 or 5 to chose from and these are Turkish and NOT Israeli M-60 SABRE series of tanks. That was the other confusing thing I remember concerning the M-60T people kept wanting to add that "SABRE" when the M-60T was truly a stand alone version built admittedly from some of the better aspects of the Israeli M-60 SABRE and made better as noted above concerning the MERKAVA aspects of it.

It's late here are those pictures and folks don't let me slip back "to the old days"...
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A little something for when I'm ready to tackle the TURKISH MBT RABBIT HOLE!! One big PITA!! And I ain't talking about the kind you eat! And they still use LEOPARD 1 tanks!!
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/Turkish-Tanks.php
https://tankandafvnews.com/2016/04/2...ornet-missile/
http://defense-update.com/20171026_m60_upgrades.html

Note Para 4 of the last ref. I found the comparison of ops between Turkey's LEOPARD 2A4 and M-60T most interesting.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; February 3rd, 2018 at 04:31 AM..
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  #765  
Old February 3rd, 2018, 08:56 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Ah !..... so the ERA blocks go onto the turret top, turret front and hull front......nothing on the sides. That make a slight difference to the unit. That " 4 o'clock " graphic was most informative. The other photos I have seen and have others taken during the same events in the game now. The branch in the rabbit hole is this.......would that ERA be second generation advance ERA?
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  #766  
Old February 3rd, 2018, 12:03 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I am sure the ERA was of a very advanced type for that time period of late 2005 until completion of deliveries in 20`0.

Please don't forget it had the MERKAVA 4 hybrid ceramic applique tiles over steel applied as well. That's what I'm not sure was addressed when I submitted the tank for modification in my first patch submission back in 2011. If I'm wrong please disregard, it's been a longtime since I've looked in on or played the Turkish OOB. I believe that's what's used on those side skirts with a possible ERA layer over them, BUT it's definitely not just steel.

Israel was willing to do this because Turkey was looking to have 300 - 350 of their M-60A1 tanks brought up to the M-60T standard. IMI had already prepped the packages and are still warehoused to be used by another buyer or if Turkey still wants them of which there has been some "chatter" due to current operations that they might and amid many reports (included in my last post here as indicated.) that the combat effectiveness has been better than their LEOPARD A24 tanks which is surprising.

I'm glad it'll get some new pics, found a video on the M-60T concerning that hybrid armor however, it's in German I think. The one we had I agree at the time didn't clearly bring in the detailed look we normally like to have and it's just sitting there. Things that move should look like they are in their "working environment" and be nationalized where possible and is why I culled those pictures in my last submission last month.

If I can get that final question we have hanging on the other tank discussed, I'll add it as an edit here.

UPDATE: Turkish M-60T did get the SABRE III upgrade as reported by Israel to the UN and as SIPRI has recorded it.
"Israel
R: Turkey 468 Navigator APC 2009 2010-2015
(468) BMC-350-16 Kirpi version
170 Sabra-3 Tank (2002) 2005-2010 (170) $688 m deal; Turkish M-60A1 tanks rebuilt to Sabra-3; Turkish designation M-60T"

So who do you believe? I believe this, Israel reported this to the UN per the current arms transfer treaties in effect. Remember the upgrade was done in Israel therefore by treaty they have to report the export of arms to another country and there are other verification systems in place as well. I know this goes against the grain of most refs (SABRE II) including from the site below, but, I've seen some to support the SABRE III upgrade as well. And what motive would Israel have to reporting something different when it can be easily rebutted by the arms experts that monitor these things?

Just let me say it for you ~!@#$%* PITA oh what a PITA. My sediments exactly when dealing with my favorite tank countries as noted.

Also I see clues in the following ref for the M-60T this from 2017 as a NEW Italian upgrade pkg. for the M-60 which might need to be watched for as well. Israel hasn't released anything like this concerning the M-60T upgrade that I've been able to find. But again it might provided some insight even just about looks the same.
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...rade-solution/

I wish we can upload word documents here without copying from them.

I haven't found anything thus far to support the T-60A3/A3 TTS ERA
(Israel did have the M-60A3 BLAZE which had an ERA pkg.), however this might've "muddled" the issue and will require follow-up
(Did I mention along with India, that Turkey is my next favorite tank country to deal with? ) I might've posted this already not sure. It's as you'll see operationally motivated.
https://www.defensenews.com/land/201...grade-contest/

I need a little quite time before work I have a nice peaceful post today such as a "Friday" should be at times.

Regards,
Pat
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  #767  
Old February 3rd, 2018, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

The bottom line here is I have not found ANY photos of Turkish M60's with ERA blocks except the M60T so the units in the game now that have it that are not M60T's are changed to TTS's without ERA which I do know for certain they did get.

Don
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Old February 4th, 2018, 03:28 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I agree that's the right course concerning the M-60A3/A3TTS. I couldn't find any pictures either from before I posted my last and up to a few minutes ago.

Also I have translated the following from the lower right corner where the date is located for each tank...HIZMETE GIRIS TARIHI

GOOGLE = DATE OF SERVICE INPUT
FreeTranslations.org = HIZMETE AUTHORIZATION FOR ENTRANCE
MS = Date of entry to the service
stars21.com/translator/turkish_to_english.html = service entry date

Turkish government source with Turkish assigned dates when those tanks entered service. This will be a key component to fixing the Turkish OOB amongst a handful of other refs. I can't wait!?!

Regards,
Pat

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Name:	Turkish MBT Development.jpg
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Old February 4th, 2018, 07:54 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

I'll go through that again and make any adjustments required. I see right off that the Leo 1 dates are way out of line and it does not appear they ever received any 1A1 or 1A2's.....only A3's so that's a big change for formations as well the modernization program ended in 2009 so unit 37 never happened....that was added before the 2008 economic crash and never removed ( but we don't get info like that easily......)
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Old February 4th, 2018, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

........well THAT was "fun"....

Some units/ formations were close.....some not so much ...some were in too soon, some not soon enough sometimes by nearly a decade but from the info you passed on as well as some I found it's ( NEARLY...)all straight now in the OOB's.....now I have to cross check the picklists to see what the damage is and fix that ( more "fun" ). I was also able to re-organize some of the unit classes a bit.

ONE nice bit of info I did find was the Leo 1 upgrades that were done seems to have produced a tank not unlike the Canadian C2.... and it now has a name....Leo 1T Volkan.

CORRECTION.... the name is good but the similarity to the C2 is in question now......this is SUCH FUN........
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