.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $8.00
Air Command 3.0- Save $12.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 9th, 2008, 04:57 AM
Jazzepi's Avatar

Jazzepi Jazzepi is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,204
Thanks: 67
Thanked 49 Times in 31 Posts
Jazzepi is on a distinguished road
Default Vanilla Summon Costs

Does anyone actually use vanilla summons, providing no magic diversity or thug/SC in addition, except as an absolute last resort? I can't think of a worse waste of gems then summoning a handful of units at a relatively decent price, as with vine ogres + summoning head piece, or summoning large quantities of really terrible fodder for far too many gems?

Personally I think the cost ratio on most summons should be lowered. Either make the cost less, which still incurrs many turns of mages sitting around summoning wasting their research and forging time to make doodz, or make the number of effects greater which would both lower the number of mages needed to cast, *and* provide cheaper troops.

Either way I think, currently, the basic "here are some doodz" summons aren't terribly useful at the moment.

Jazzepi
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old March 9th, 2008, 06:27 AM
vfb's Avatar

vfb vfb is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Japan
Posts: 3,691
Thanks: 269
Thanked 397 Times in 200 Posts
vfb is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

I like Call of Winds, and national sacred summons are good.

I've got an MA Mictlan game where I've summoned really quite a lot of Jaguars (Conj 3 spell), along with quite a few Jade Serpents. It's going pretty well.
__________________
Whether he submitted the post, or whether he did not, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed— would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper— the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever.
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 9th, 2008, 07:30 AM
Jazzepi's Avatar

Jazzepi Jazzepi is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,204
Thanks: 67
Thanked 49 Times in 31 Posts
Jazzepi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

Quote:
vfb said:
I like Call of Winds, and national sacred summons are good.

I've got an MA Mictlan game where I've summoned really quite a lot of Jaguars (Conj 3 spell), along with quite a few Jade Serpents. It's going pretty well.
I should have specified that the summon at a distance spells were out, as they're not vanilla. Those clearly have their uses fighting PD, etc.

Jazzepi
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old March 9th, 2008, 08:08 AM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,133
Thanks: 25
Thanked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Omnirizon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

I can't entirely agree with the OP.

certainly, there are some damned useless summons.
but as vtb notes: national summonable sacreds can be OK sometimes.

and spells that summon lots of pretty good troops at reasonable prices are good, like the higher level, often national, summons. spells where you get 20ish units around 30ish gems; units with over 20 HP, and str and prot over 15. But I don't know, I'm only in my 2nd MP game, so maybe these are actually useless. They look pretty tasty to me though.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 9th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Edi's Avatar

Edi Edi is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 5,425
Thanks: 174
Thanked 695 Times in 267 Posts
Edi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

The most problematic summons are the various low to mid-level summons that cost 15 to 30 gems for 5 to 20 units that are essentially worthless. Many of those are nature summons, but others as well. The cost efficiency is so bad that you are always better off using those gems to forge items or distributing them among battle mages. You get more use out of them that way.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Cerlin Cerlin is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Japan
Posts: 351
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cerlin is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

I play Agartha a lot, and because of that I like to use low level national summons they have in all ages.

But vanella summons? I am sure that I have used some but generally they seem somewhat wasteful. I do not build a lot of thugs generally, but I like to save my gems for mage item, mid game summons, and the big late game ones.
__________________
"Talk is cheap, but if it keeps your belly full and your grave empty it is worth more than gold." - Lords of Magic Manual.

"Luck is what others call skill when they have none." - Phelean Wolf
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Jazzepi's Avatar

Jazzepi Jazzepi is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,204
Thanks: 67
Thanked 49 Times in 31 Posts
Jazzepi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

Quote:
Edi said:
The most problematic summons are the various low to mid-level summons that cost 15 to 30 gems for 5 to 20 units that are essentially worthless. Many of those are nature summons, but others as well. The cost efficiency is so bad that you are always better off using those gems to forge items or distributing them among battle mages. You get more use out of them that way.
This is exactly what I'm talking about D: They spells end up being so junky they're useless. I'd really like to see the spells retooled to be more useful. I think it'd be a lot more interesting to see T'ien Ch'i's soldiers supplemented with a contingent of ancestral ghosts, instead of just more of the same national troops as cannon fodder because the gems are just too valuable to waste on low ratio, low power, summons.

Jazzepi
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:19 AM
Dedas's Avatar

Dedas Dedas is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lund, Sweden
Posts: 1,377
Thanks: 72
Thanked 25 Times in 20 Posts
Dedas is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

Yes, that is what I've always thought. All the serpent/drake spells for example - pure crap. Do anyone ever use them (besides from SP). Even the spell that is intended to strengthen them is bad (dragon master). I mean lv8 and 30 gems to get "not one but three" of them. What is up with that?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:39 AM

Sombre Sombre is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,463
Thanks: 165
Thanked 324 Times in 190 Posts
Sombre is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

Well this is kinda my speciality area. If you go back to the old CBM thread you can see my analysis of various vanilla summons and suggestions to improve them in CBM.

Many, many summons are improved in CBM, though sometimes I think qm doesn't go far enough. Or at least as far as I would.

Summon animals in CBM is a hot spell though. It scales (quite a lot) and is cheap and in the right terrain you get some nice stuff. Just as an example.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Dedas's Avatar

Dedas Dedas is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lund, Sweden
Posts: 1,377
Thanks: 72
Thanked 25 Times in 20 Posts
Dedas is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vanilla Summon Costs

The CBM is a way to solve the issues of course, but I rather have an explanation by Kristoffer how he justifies the high costs. I mean doesn't he like animals?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2020, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.