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  #461  
Old November 15th, 2018, 07:07 AM

Gooseman2448 Gooseman2448 is offline
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

Hey everyone,

I haven't been active in a long while but, I check in on the forum every week. I still keep track of updates to military vehicle and oob changes.

I just came across this article and thought I would post it.

Russian IFV to be upgraded with 57mm AA guns as main armament:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...57mm_guns.html

Cheers
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  #462  
Old November 15th, 2018, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

"approved an armor development concept."...... means to me ( having been fooled more than once about things like this.... ) that this is going into the early testing phase. As time goes by we'll see if anything comes of it but I seriously doubt if they will be in service ( IF they pass field trials.....)before 2025

Quote:
The more powerful 57mm gun will help Russian light armor fight APC and IFV and any adversary tank. It will destroy sights, heat imagers and other outside equipment or destroy highly protected Abrams tank by a side hit.
one of the things we are looking at this year is potentially adding the ability to damage some of the peripheral systems like "sights, heat imagers and other outside equipment"... we will see what might be possible once we get to that point.

as for
Quote:
or destroy highly protected Abrams tank by a side hit.
you can do that now using an mid 80's era ASU-57 using SABOT on a side shot on a 2018 era Abram or T90 as well... so this is nothing new but going from 30mm rounds to 57 mm round will cut down on the amount of ammo carried.

You can knock out a Tiger tank in WW2 with a 6 pounder ( 57mm ) as well..nothing new

more on this..... a report from 2014
http://warfaretech.blogspot.com/2014...om-russia.html

according to that article, the initial test turret system carried enough ammo for under 1 minute sustained fire (20+73) but with autocannon we simulate bursts of fire so something like that might carry about half the rounds ( bursts ) as a 30mm vehicle
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Last edited by DRG; November 15th, 2018 at 02:44 PM..
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  #463  
Old November 15th, 2018, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

The round size is the issue, 57mm is not twice the size of 30mm probably closer to 3 times the size so ammo loadout is an issue.
That said despite the reduced ammo loadout France discovered putting a remote turret with advanced fire control on was more effective as it required less ammo expenditure for a kill.
Then there is telescopic ammo, cant see Russia going to the expense.
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  #464  
Old November 15th, 2018, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

If with the 57 mm a "tactical burst" is 4 rounds for that vehicle/gun combo then if the ammo loads indicated in that article are correct the vehicle would carry 24 in a 12/12 split as rough guesstimate based on sketchy info at best
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  #465  
Old December 2nd, 2018, 01:00 AM
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Fallout Re: APC Development and related topics.

Don,
If you will allow it, it's inline with what I've done in the MBT forum, the following...
A1. BRAZIL/ADD/NOV 2018/GUARANI VBTP-MR/COPY UNIT 576/REMOVE UT-30/ADD/REMAX TURRET with 12.7mm + 7.62mm + SMOKE GRANADE LAUNCHERS 76mm x 4/SYSTEM INFO REF. 2// Ref. 2 contains FURTHER system specs.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/nove...rani_apcs.html
http://ares.ind.br/new/en/land-systems/remax.php
https://www.armyrecognition.com/braz..._pictures.html


Does the above format make it easier?

It feels good to be doing some of this again!! But then CINCLANTHOME is in VA. for the GD's "Sweet 16" on Monday!!

Regards,
Pat
Wait a minute, there's another one of those "ANEMIA" things again, sorry, just informed this one is authorized.
Director of the Censor Dept.
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  #466  
Old December 2nd, 2018, 06:27 AM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

So there is no 30mm version ?
that seems to be the VBCI whereas the 12.7mm version is VBTP but I don't see anything about the 30mm version in service

Quote:
In December 2012, The Italian Defence Company IVECO has delivered the first batch of VBTP-MR Guarani 6x6 armoured vehicle to the Brazilian army. This delivery is the first of the contract of $246 million signed by IVECO Defence Vehicles and the Department of Science and Technology of the Brazilian army to manufacture 86 units of the Guarani for 2014. In March 2014, The Brazilian Army has delivered the first batch of Guarani Armored Personnel Transport Vehicles to a mechanized infantry unit in Western Parana state.
So how do we get from March 2014 to Nov 2018 ?
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Old December 2nd, 2018, 01:43 PM
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Fallout Re: APC Development and related topics.

Don,

For 03/2014 UNITS 576 & 577 with UT-30, they are good as I submitted them. Also with 13 at 03/2013 my thinking was and I believe this came up when submitted in my last "Patch Post" they were enough to stand up a unit, my thinking now is a "company" of them if you will.

The following from ref below...
"Aug/Sept 2014: State of the program. At the end of September Iveco delivered the 100th of a total of 128 vehicles to be delivered by the end of 2014 (16 pilot VBTPs, 86 evaluation vehicles + 26 addons). The 2015 budget sets aside BRL 200M ($82M) for 56 vehicles.
An entry on the Brazilian Army’s weblog explained in August how the Guarani was “finally operational.” The 33º BI Mec (Batalhão de Infantaria Mecanizado – Mechanized Infantry Battalion) received its 1st 13 vehicles back in March 2014 and should have 42 of them by 2015. They are being tested in the southern state of Paraná near Paraguay and seem to meet expectations. The vehicle can cross streams as expected, though it has a slight tendency to sink further on its right due to the engine’s position.
Sources: Defensa.com: “Iveco Latin America construye el blindado VBTP-MR Guaraní número 100” | Exército Brasileiro: “Guarani finalmente operacional” [in Portuguese]."

From SIPRI Israel to Bazil timeframe 2000-2017 with no REMAX showing...
"Israel
R: Brazil (216) UT-25/UT-30 IFV turret (2010) 2014-2016 (30)
$260 m deal; UT-30 version; for VBTP-MR IFV produced in Brazil
"
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-brazil-06048/

Why no REMAX? Well to start with they should have them already, again from ref above...
Oct 24/12: REMAX RWS. Elbit’s Brazilian subsidiary Ares Aeroespacial e Defensa Ltda. announces a $25 million contract to supply its stabilized REMAX remote weapon stations to the Brazilian Army. This is the 1st production order, and deliveries will be made from 2012-2014.

They didn't get them because of Brazils economic crisis (There he goes again about economics! Well it matters you can't afford to but it or maintain w/o a good economy. Look what happened to the ROOKIVALK AH of the SANDF, grounded the whole fleet for 18 months, long enough that I made the case at the time to change it's dates for that period of time and we did. When the economy improved they had enough financing to not only get them flying again but also accomplished a significant upgrade to them as well, also entered in the game.

The cost to South Africa? Well they were going to show case them at the opening/closing ceremonies when they hosted the "World Cup" and couldn't. There were at least 3 countries of record (Turkey being one of them and bought the AW-129's (From memory.) instead.) looking to buy it during this time, and timing is everything, and they didn't. To this day, and this is one of the best AH helos out there, none have been exported.

More on Brazils issues...
https://www.thebalance.com/brazil-s-economy-3306343

This is just one part of the formula I use in submitting dates. Not always right but, generally pretty close.

Don I hope this answered your question,, and if you missed it, also in the first ref above, they did an update dated last fall I believe, showing the contracts were signed for the REMAX. This along with my last post should work for the VBTP-MR with REMAX as submitted. I think you might have missed "COPY" UNIT 576.


Regards,
Pat
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