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  #41  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

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Quote:
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It is right on the edge or yea or nay when it comes to Z fire being right on the line so no I do not think it's a "bug" and I don't think it's going to make a huge difference in gameplay. The changes we made will ensure that some things that used to work one way will not now and we knew Z fire users would be unhappy but it is what we had to do to stop the arty countdown cheat.

I have used Z fire a number of times in a scenario I've been playing and have not had anything I consider unusual or surprising happen and a screenshot is not nearly as useful as a save game but it would likely be impossible to run it with the old EXE then the new to compare results but YES allowable Z-fire has been tightened up a bit
I agree some Z fire should not have been possible, any hex with a decent density value should prevent that and looking at the game it's approx 40% density that blocks fire. In this case one is 100% the other only 15% so some fire should be possible.

The ability to suppress hexes in this way before moving into LOS is now serverely restricted. With high density terrain some other method needs to be found i.e. more artillery. Calling up artillery to surpress a hex will result on a slower game due to response times requiring longer scenario times.

Also, just about every scenario I've every played would require more artillery units in order to compensate for the inability to hose down a partially hidden hex as before. All-in-all it will make a big difference to game play.

Note that I do agree that some z fire should not have been possible, but in the instance I've posted here it should be.
But isn't the type of situation you describe (a unit wanting to fire at another unit outside of LOS) the exact reason we have artillery, mortars, air support?

As for hex density, I don't think it works that way. I never knew about any percentage, just a rating. The way I know it is that anything over 30 density in a hex and you can't see past it to another hex beyond, and the density is cumulative.
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  #42  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 05:14 AM

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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

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Originally Posted by chris h View Post

I agree some Z fire should not have been possible, any hex with a decent density value should prevent that and looking at the game it's approx 40% density that blocks fire. In this case one is 100% the other only 15% so some fire should be possible.

The ability to suppress hexes in this way before moving into LOS is now serverely restricted. With high density terrain some other method needs to be found i.e. more artillery. Calling up artillery to surpress a hex will result on a slower game due to response times requiring longer scenario times.

Also, just about every scenario I've every played would require more artillery units in order to compensate for the inability to hose down a partially hidden hex as before. All-in-all it will make a big difference to game play.

Note that I do agree that some z fire should not have been possible, but in the instance I've posted here it should be.
But isn't the type of situation you describe (a unit wanting to fire at another unit outside of LOS) the exact reason we have artillery, mortars, air support?

As for hex density, I don't think it works that way. I never knew about any percentage, just a rating. The way I know it is that anything over 30 density in a hex and you can't see past it to another hex beyond, and the density is cumulative.
I've always looked at 30 density as 30%, a building should have 100 and block fire completely so once you get to 100 density over a number of hexes fire is blocked but that isn't the case now. In the example I posted one hex is 100% blocked due to the house the wheat field is 15%. You should be able to area/recon fire into the enemy hex. You can't because it can't see the hex.

Here's another. The MG should be able to area fire down the trail at the two units. Again it can't, it can fire at the hexes it can see. Just because you can actually see a location it does not mean you fire in the general direction. Bullets don't magically stop just because you can't actually see the location.

Yes, that's why you have art but you miss the point. Previously you could fire at a location, as I've just said, now to pin down a unit before closing to a location you could actually see it from no matter what that range is. Now you have to stop and work round to somewhere you can actually see the hex before you can fire at it without any suppressing fire. Alternatively you can call down artillery, actualy mortars as you'll be too close for big stuff. Whatever artilley it is, it takes somewhere in excess >1 turn, usually between 2/3 turns. This will slow the game down so some of the scenarios/campaigns that say move quickly or are severely limited in time will become impossible in the time frame allowed.

There is of cause the Banzai option.

One further thing I'm now experimenting with a campaign I'm playing using the new rules. It's hard due to all the observation I've mentioned above. Where my loss rate in men was moderate under the old it has increase considerably under the new
I've also tried the artillery method but the game slowed to crawl.

Everything else in the patch is really good but I'm not impressed by most of the new z key rules although I can live with the no F key use, just means more clicking.

I'm still using the new version but I'm likely to revert back very shortly.
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  #43  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 05:19 AM

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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

For some reason the image wouldn't post. FOund it was too big had to zip it.
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  #44  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

Well the point as I see it with the new Z fire rules is to make the game more realistic. In real life would you use or even be able to use your weapons in the way you describe? In real life you MUST have LOS to hit your target with a flat trajectory weapon like a rifle or machine gun, that is what's being modeled here. I think the new rules take away any unfair advantage Z fire might have given before and Z fire shouldn't be used to "plow the road" as it were anyways. I use Z fire myself from time to time on targets that have fired upon me and that my units haven't properly identified yet, in that way it is useful, but it is not my main tool to advance with.
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  #45  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 06:58 AM

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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

Wheat fields do not block fire, only hinder sight. Clear tracks do not block fire either.
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  #46  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 07:26 AM

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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

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Also, just about every scenario I've every played would require more artillery units in order to compensate ...
I can understand, but I think the scenarios would then have to be adjusted, not the game.

Maybe there would also be the possibility to exclude these directly firing mortar units from the new rules?

Last edited by anlubue; April 3rd, 2019 at 07:35 AM..
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  #47  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 09:22 AM

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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

Ach, this discussion has been going on for years, if not decades. For a relatively recent thread (2016) on this topic check the link below.

Yes, the new rule will make it more difficult to attack, and without arty preparation it's possible to burn out a whole platoon in order to get one squad to "stick" after coming adjacent to an enemy. Yet it is more realistic (how can you z-fire through buildings and trees to the hex beyond if direct fire can't?) and it removes a significant exploit.

It does seem stricter than Weasel's optional rule, which IIRC allowed it to one hex beyond LOS. In which case it presents a challenge to players (like me) who got in the habit of using z-fire with tanks to prepare advances in close terrain or limited visibility.

Regardless of this controversy the new patch promises to be a cornucopia of added pleasure with new scenarios galore. Thanks guys!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ghlight=z-fire
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  #48  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

Random thing I noticed while flipping through the SHP list:

{9423, 2159}, // 2223 Mk V (Male)
{9424, 2159}, // 2224 Mk V (Female)
{9425, 2159}, // 2225 Mk V (Hybrid)
{5477, -1}, // 3077 A7V
{5478, -1}, // 3078 Saint-Chamond
{5479, -1}, // 3079 Mark A Whippet




It's now possible to basically, if you're judiciously careful, have SPWW1 battles with stock SPWW2 within constraints of the engine (i.e. earliest battles in 1930) with no extra modding (SHP files) needed; since you can then use other icons already in game for what limited air support existed in 1917-1918, i.e.

Westland Wapiti (UK Slot 798 - Icon 7967) for Royal Flying Corps Support

Curtiss P-6 (USA Slot 360 -- Icon 856) for United States Army Air Service

Potez 39 (France Slot 565 -- Icon 8261) for Armee d'lair (France)

He 51 (Germany Slot 340 -- Icon 545) for Imperial German Flying Corps

Plus, many of the guns of WW1 were recycled into WW2 -- and some exist in other sections:

BLUE OOB has Unit 328 -- 105mm mle 1913, etc

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  #49  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

POST 27 of this thread would have been your first clue

Then there is Scenario 774

and as well....

8213 Breguet 14.B2 France used until 1930

but one restriction is to get the Imperial German flag you need to have the date set to between April 1933 and Aug 1935.
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  #50  
Old April 3rd, 2019, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: WinSPWW2 V12 ( 2019 ) Upgrade

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Wheat fields do not block fire, only hinder sight. Clear tracks do not block fire either.
They do block LOS if they aren't as clear as you think they are.

The game ONLY reads LOS from the centre of one hex to the centre of another and if anything at all breaks that line you don't have LOS. If a hex has trees then the entire hex has trees even if the graphic doesn't cover the entire hex



That is why the lighter hexes are in LOS from that unit in the direction it is facing and the darker hexes are not. If the hex with the Matilda did not have trees in it you would for sure have LOS into the Blue X hex but it's iffy if you would have into the Yellow X hex

Don
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