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  #31  
Old October 19th, 2019, 12:12 PM

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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

May be instead of HEAT then. T-64A CS has 12 HEAT ammo but they often are useless against strong anti-HEAT armour of NATO tanks. Close support tank T-64B1 (unit 683) has 4 sabot but T-64A is deprived.
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  #32  
Old October 19th, 2019, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

Yeah we can do that
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  #33  
Old October 27th, 2019, 04:56 PM

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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

Notes for WinSPMBT version 10.0 upgrade patch (April 2016) say:
"PGM (precision-guided munition) from aircraft will now work like HEAT on hard targets, even if it is an HE type weapon (has to be as an air weapon for aircraft). If the AP pen is 222 coded (and all relevant weapons now are...), it will strike any hard target hit as HEAT using the HEAT pen value."

Question about Soviet guided missiles Kh-23, Kh-29 (OOB 11, weapon 206, 208).
Why these missiles have not got HEAT pen values and AP pen value 222 in game? Kh-23 was fitted up with HEAT warhead and Kh-29 with HESH warhead. I think these missiles warhead weight is enough to have HEAT value similar to American AGM-65 Maverick (HEAT 125).
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Old October 27th, 2019, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

I'll put this onto the list to look into when we get to that stage. That said you can provide sources that show that the Kh-23 was fitted up with HEAT warhead and Kh-29 with HESH warhead ?.

Because nothing I have found.... and I have not dug too deeply.... but I find no mention of that. All I found was the S-25 had a 21 kg shaped charge precursor warhead
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Old October 27th, 2019, 10:01 PM
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Thumbs down Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

The KH-23 appears to be no better then the U.S. "BULLPUP" as far as the guidance system or performance achieved.
The KH-25ML was the better designed missile and purpose built to take out fortifications, bunkers and armor. I would think given the "field of view" it's accuracy would be degraded against a moving target.

Like all missiles generally, it's about the Guidance System, Warhead (Or if you will and as used in a couple of the refs, Penetrator.) and Payload and, in this case I've seen nothing to indicate that the payload is anything other then HE.

In my "way of business" I've not looked at anything WiKi for reasons stated many times in the past, however, the below refs. are the best I can find outside of those others. I should think they should be enough for now.
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/Europea...s/edmis3a4.htm
http://armamentresearch.com/kh-29-ai...role-in-libya/
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-A...mozTocId603457
http://www.digitalcombatmercenaries....mfceeetmpvkjq0
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ssia/as-10.htm
From the above ref.:
"...instead an additional warhead weighing 24 kg to supplement the 113 kg warhead in the front, was placed in its tail section..."


Add on: I forgot to add that some of these missiles were limited to what aircraft could carry them by missile designation.

For perspective and contrast:
The following to again make the my points (Less the penetrator. See below.) from Para. 2 above (And again HE. The aluminum is to contain and stabilize the other two ingredients until detonated by the fusing system. That's what the Warhead is made of.)
https://www.dodlive.mil/2017/04/14/w...-of-all-bombs/

Also just added: KH-15 primarily designed to carry a nuclear warhead, two conventional designs later followed. This obviously of the same "KH" family of missiles.
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...20(Kh-15).html

I hope this helps.

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Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; October 28th, 2019 at 06:06 AM.. Reason: Forgot to add Ref. 2.everything is HE.
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Old October 28th, 2019, 12:22 PM
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Exclamation Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

I looked at the Global security link and there is nothing about a HEAT or HESH warhead.

Pat, if someone wants to question the data and suggest it is wrong and needs adjusting neither you nor I should be expected to drop what we are doing and wade through data links for hours doing their legwork.

I do not have the time or interest in doing that and guessing neither do you really so for these kinds of issues it's up to the person questioning the data accuracy to present links that prove they are correct so that corrections can be made.

Quote:
Featuring a 320 kg high explosive (HE) warhead, Kh-29 missiles are fitted with an impact target sensor, allowing penetration of the exterior of the target prior to detonation.
does not indicate it has a HEAT warhead only a delay to detonation


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Last edited by DRG; October 28th, 2019 at 01:44 PM..
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  #37  
Old October 28th, 2019, 02:17 PM

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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

At the moment can give only source in Russian. Kh-23 is «Х-23» in Russian letters.
http://авиару.рф/aviamuseum/...a-raketa-h-23/

Here is the third paragraph from end:
«Боевая часть ракеты кумулятивно-осколочно-фугасная, снаряжена мощным взрывчатым веществом типа ТГ-40. В двух бортовых сегментах боевой части помещено 1488 готовых поражающих элементов — стальных кубиков с ребром 10 мм, которые при подрыве разлетались вбок и вперед. БЧ обеспечивала сплошное поражение небронированных целей в радиусе до 40 м и уничтожение защищенных объектов с толщиной брони до 250 мм. БЧ снабжалась неконтактным взрывателем РОВ-19Л, обеспечивавшим подрыв при пролете над целью, а в случае прямого попадания срабатывали находящиеся в рулевом отсеке контактные датчики СКД-24.»
Translation:
“Missile warhead is cumulative splinter high explosive equipped with powerful explosive TG-40. In two side segments of warhead 1488 ready splinter elements are placed – steel little cubes with edge 10 mm which scatter sideways and forward after detonation. Warhead provided complete defeat of unarmored targets within a radius of 40 m and destroying of protected objects with armor thickness up to 250 mm. Warhead was equipped with proximity fuse ROV-19L providing detonation when flying above target, and, in the case of direct hit, contact sensors SKD-24 located in the steering compartment were triggered.”

In Russian “cumulative” means HEAT.
In provided figure (the second from end) we can find:
• note number 30 – oskolochno-fugasno-kumulyativnaya boevaya chast F-23M – splinter high explosive cumulative warhead F-23M.
• note number 33 – stalnaya konicheskaya kumulyativnaya voronka – steel conic cumulative funnel.

So this munition was designed to combine HE and HEAT features.

Besides, HE Kill value of 100 kg regular bomb is 30 so HE Kill value of Kh-23 should be more than 30. Now it is 25. At the same time AGM-65 has HE Kill value 56 with warhead weighting 136 kg.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Kh-23.zip (359.4 KB, 15 views)

Last edited by rel19; October 28th, 2019 at 02:50 PM..
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  #38  
Old October 28th, 2019, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

This will be investigated. Andy indicated to me he saw other issues with some of the weapons in this unitclass and would take a look after the new Year

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  #39  
Old October 28th, 2019, 05:33 PM
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Fallout Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

Here I was thinking I didn't want you (And now appears Andy as well.) to get to involved in these kind of issues!?! This almost appears as if we're "enabling" each other out here, and that term most always is proscribed to "addiction" issues based on my collateral duty as a "DAPA" in the USN.

Boy are we !!

From my last Post, Ref. 2 does state for the 3 KH-29 types they carried high explosive. So I'm thinking now based on rel19's last we're dealing with different payloads within the "KH" (And maybe others?) family of missiles possibly dependent on the "era" the missile was used and maybe it's "sub-variants" like noted in the AUSA site for the KH-25 series.

And if Andy found something else, that can't be good either. So...
Another %@!* "Rabbit Hole" AGAIN!

Regards,
Pat
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  #40  
Old November 2nd, 2019, 08:48 AM

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Default Re: Problems with the current Russian OOB (#11).

Yes, Kh-23, Kh-25, Kh-29 are three different familes of missiles with different warheads. Kh-25 has splinter high explosive warhead and laser guidance. It has substituted Kh-23 missile which had radio command guidance. Kh-29 is large and heavy munition against protected objects with television (Kh-29T) or laser (Kh-29L) guidanse. There is an article about Kh-29 on the same site:
http://авиару.рф/aviamuseum/...a-raketa-h-29/

Reading the last paragraph of the first section:
Quote:
Боевая часть ракеты — бронебойно-фугасная, массой 317 кг, что составляет половину от стартовой массы ракеты. Она представляет собой массивный стакан из твёрдых сортов стали, заполненный высокобризантным взрывчатым веществом. Масса ВВ при этом составляет 116 кг. Сочетание скорости, более чем вдвое превышающей скорость звука, и очень тяжёлой и прочной боевой части обеспечивает боеголовке высокую проникающую способность. Это позволяет эффективно разрушать высокозащищённые объекты, такие как бетонные сооружения или надводные корабли. Перед детонацией боевой нагрузки ракета способна пробить порядка 1 м бетона, укрытого 3 метрами грунта. При атаке железобетонных взлётно-посадочных полос ракета оставляет воронку диаметром 12-15 и глубиной около 6 метров, что надолго выводит их из строя.
Translation:
"Missile warhead is armor-piercing high explosive weighting 317 kg which is half the starting mass of the missile. It is a massive body of hard grade of steel filled with high brisance explosive where the mass of explosive is 116 kg. The combination of speed which is more than twice the sound speed and very heavy and lasting warhead provides high penetrating ability. This allows effectively destroy high protected objects such as concrete constructions and surface ships. Before detonation of the action load the missile is able to break through about 1 meters of concrete covered with 3 meters of soil. In attack of reinforced concrete runway strips the missile gives a crater with a diameter of 12-15 meters and about 6 meters deep."

On provided figure (the seventh in the article) we can find:
label 6 – protivorikoshetnoe ustroystvo – anti-ricochet device;
label 8 – pronikayuchshaya oskolochno-fugasnaya BCh 9B63MN – penetrating splinter high explosive warhead 9B63MN.
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