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  #1051  
Old July 1st, 2020, 01:00 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

We continue by going backwards again first...
FINLAND: There is an issue here besides a minor name change to Finland's UNIT 021 LEOPARD 2A6, it should be renamed as LEOPARD 2A6FIN.

That was the easy part, it turns out the Finn's bought those tanks from the NETHERLANDS, I reference UNIT 037 LEOPARD 2NLA6. Part of the agreement was, that those tanks were to be further upgraded from the 2NLA6 standard prior to Finland taking delivery of them.

At a minimum Finland's UNIT 021 in operational capabilities should be an exact copy of the Netherland's UNIT 037.

It also appears from the next that the START should be either APR/or JUN 2016.

I quote "Colonel Rainer Peltoniemi, commander of the Häme Armoured Battalion, added that the Finnish Army had begun training with the Leopard 2A6 very quickly, starting in 2016. “It has been excellent to see how these tanks were introduced into operational use in such a short time,” Peltoniemi said,..."

This is why I favored APR over JUN, they've already operated the LEOPARD's for years and are a highly professional service.

What is unknown to me at this time is simply, were there any other combat related upgrades made to those tanks besides what's listed (NON-STARTERS) in the "teaser" article from JANE's?

I'll look further into this but, I stand by the matching/merging of those units as essentially direct copies at this time.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...rd-2a6fin-mbts

Regards,
Pat
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  #1052  
Old July 3rd, 2020, 11:08 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Tried to get this out early this morning but, exprienced log-in issues.

My focus is simply to close the loop concerning the LEOPARD 2A6FIN. The previous/last post is an important part of this process.

I can say without a doubt in my mind that, operationally speaking, the Dutch LEOPARD 2NLA6 and the Finnish LEOPARD 2A6FIN are the same tanks. So a direct copy will work in this case into Finland's OOB. Units noted in my last.

Several other items were bought along with the tanks to include the trainers (Which were the only item to be later upgraded by THALES. The trainers will be completely made current. The advantage for the Finnish Army is should they decide to further upgrade these tanks in the future, the crews will be able to train on the new systems before they are put into the tanks.), Ammo and Engineer tanks.

Also in the search for any further upgrades to the LEOPARD 2A6FIN, the only other item that came up was that Finland will be buying additional ammo for these tanks from Israel during this and next year. I did not save that article as again I don't think there's that much difference between the ammo made by Elbit Land Systems (Formally IMI.) and Rheinmetall of Germany where the Dutch bought theirs from. But most of this buy is for HE 120mm tank ammo.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...rd-2a6fin-mbts
(Bottom para with the upgrades made, again non-game issues.)

But a two week earlier ref brings up the next issue, this concerning UNIT 024 LEOPARD A24S it would appear, well let me do it this way first from the next ref...
"The Leopard 2A6s will replace the Finnish Army’s Leopard 2A4s as the main battle tank of the Finnish Army. The Leopard 2A4s have been moved into reserve or training units following the delivery of Leopard 2A6s, with the exception of 12 that were converted into combat engineering and bridging vehicles, and will remain in frontline service. The Finnish Army will retain them (2A4s-mine) for driver training and as a source of spare parts for the Leopard 2A6s." So...

OP#1: If we accept the following from above, "The Leopard 2A6s will replace the Finnish Army’s Leopard 2A4s as the main battle tank of the Finnish Army." AND assuming the last batch (OCT. 2019.) became operational by JAN. 2020 then I recommend UNIT 024 LEOPARD 2A4S END date be changed to JAN. 2020 vice DEC. 2025.

OP#2: But if we go with the next sentence from above, "The Leopard 2A4s have been moved into reserve or training units following the delivery of Leopard 2A6s (Which delivery?-Mine), with the exception of 12 that were converted into combat engineering and bridging vehicles, and will remain in frontline service." As I go on in the below para, it's anyone's guess.

Given the ambiguity of those two statements, I rather would want to go with OP#1 and be "SAFER THEN SORRIER", I feel it's the best option as I can't find anything to support the same for an earlier date for withdrawal of the Finnish LEOPARD 2A4S from frontline service. I can even see and support NLT JUN. 2020 as well if you think it best. Certainly the LEOPARD 2A6FIN (Last batch received last OCT. 2019.) would've been fully integrated into the Finnish Army by last month and there haven't been any articles to the contrary, I came across in my search on both these tanks.
https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/10...a6s-delivered/

An early article concerning the first delivery. You'll notice the information has stayed consistent from May 2015 through essentially NOV. 2019.
https://world-defense.com/threads/fi...herlands.2134/


Now I'm off to bed, before someone thinks, it's with my head for not going to bed sooner!?!

Almost forgot we'll need another LEOPARD 2A6FIN with HE ammo as they got that from the Dutch and the buy from Elbit Land Systems will primarily consist of HE ammo as also.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; July 3rd, 2020 at 12:01 PM..
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  #1053  
Old July 4th, 2020, 12:42 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I've stated many times I like to see equipment doing things vice sitting looking like a "static" display. With that in mind and from Finnish source's, I have 4 of the LEOPARD 2A6FIN and 1 of the LEOPARD 2A4FS. if there is a desire.

TO BE CORRECTED EVENTUALLY


Well it's TGIF for me, the last couple of days were rough with a our wonderful humidity and temps heat index 102 - 112 for the last 2 weeks, blah!!! (I wish!)

Well something didn't quite go right I'll have to fix this later.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by DRG; July 5th, 2020 at 09:20 PM..
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  #1054  
Old July 5th, 2020, 10:38 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Well first THANK YOU to Don for taking care of the technical glitch associated with the picture of the last post!!

So as I was conducting my search for more "action packed" pictures of the Finnish LEOPARD 2A4/2A6FIN (Of which I found some good ones of. ), won't you know I would come across some very interesting news concerning their LEOPARD 2A4. I was so very happy I did based on my last posts.

Though I did leave an out of JUN 2020 END, I really didn't think it necessary until the below two refs from Feb/Mar 2020 where the "star" of the show (NATO Exercise Cold Response 2020.) for Finland was...yes the LEOPARD 2A4. Anyone for DEC 2020!?!

I'm at a momentary loss for a "Simile" at the moment after that last! (Sorta.)

Anyway...
https://www.milmag.eu/news/view?news_id=3491
https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/fin...-response-2020
(COVID-19 strikes in a separate exercise!?!)

UKRAINE:
I think I'll "kick the tires" with this Ref, I like what my "snoopy around" is showing so far. It offers a really good look at the upgraded T-80BV tanks I think we just got the last patch.
https://www.milmag.eu/news/view?news_id=3663

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; July 6th, 2020 at 03:24 AM..
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  #1055  
Old July 6th, 2020, 02:11 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I'm going to skip ahead a bit because of the subject matter of one of the refs below. Quite frankly I'm surprised somewhat that nobody hasn't already "jumped" on this story and it's a good thing because I'd be forced to take "the wind out of your sails" which is never fun for me.

I will be focused on ABRAMS on this post. First off what's being done to them to stave off obsolesce issues and where we're at, from 5/20...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...ce_issues.html

We're still handing out ABRAMS M1A2 SEP V2 from 8/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/augu...onversion.html

The rest generally revolve around the ABRAMS M1A2 SEP 3/M1A2C...
Strike Shield APS anyone, anyone? From 12/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/dece...u.s._army.html

Cooling down the the TI from 5/20...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...ams_tanks.html

First Brigade to get M1A2C SOoooNn from 5/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...ered_soon.html

Don't get to excited because a year later...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...tle_tanks.html

Refer back to Ref.1 if you have any questions first please on the last item.

A little history. While tracking the ABRAMS SEP V2 for submission, I had to wait for sometime because the USA equipped around 8 Brigades before that tank reached FOC. That's not to say the M1A2C won't be fast tracked (Though the record already shows it hasn't.) and brought to FOC sooner. However I'm feeling much more comfortable about the revised START Date I submitted for the last Patch based on these Refs as submitted.

The following are for GP and of minor (Or more?) interest...

The longest running and comprehensive Ref on ABRAMS (Among many others.)
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...updated-02834/

Well the USA buys foreign, specifically from the UKRAINE again, in 2003 we bought over a year 4 T-80UD tanks. So in 3/18 were getting ready to buy a OPLOT-M. If you read the article carefully, you'll understand the future value to the UKRAINE concerning potential advances in their armor development.
https://world-defense.com/threads/us...tle-tank.5352/

This in no way unusual I've personally seen what I swore was a MERKAVA being transported up I-26 West about 45 minutes East of Columbia, S.C. about 4-5yrs ago.

And don't think the Russians didn't take an interest in the "diluted" IRAQI M1A1 tanks we sold them.

And so it goes round and round again.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; July 6th, 2020 at 03:22 AM..
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  #1056  
Old Yesterday, 01:19 AM
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FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
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Fallout Re: MBT's

The reason Don took down the tank picture in Post 1053 was because if you went to "save as" it linked back directly to my PC's saved "Picture" file. Not good!

Never had a problem attaching pictures to my posts before 2 July 2020 when MS determined we're all to have EDGE Chromium and their hearing about it in their forum pages. So these are from my IMGUR account.

What I'm first posting are all from Finnish sources. I noted we would need probably 2 LEOPARD 2A6FIN units in the OOB and now I see the wisdom of doing the same for the current LEOPARD 2A4AS in the OOB as well. 1 each in an anti-tank role and 1 each in a general purpose role as I believe the current UNIT 021 LEOPARD 2A4AS is modeled with 10 HE rounds. This makes sense in that the primary mission of their tanks is to take out the other guys tanks. But as noted in my last Finnish post, they've made a huge buy in primarily HE 120mm Ammo from ELBIT Land Systems (Again formally IMI.)

The first two are LEOPARD 2A4s with their Winter Camo...

Primary LEOPARD 2A4 pictures for submission...


My preference in order of photos is 5, 4 and 2.

Now for what I expect will be for the 2 LEOPARD 2A6FIN tank submission...


My preference in order of photos is 2nd Row left, and really about a tie for the Top photo or 2nd Row Right.

And that's that and back to the "grind" later this afternoon.

Have a good night, it's only 0130 CINCLANTHOME will wonder if I'm feeling alright going to bed so soon!?!

Hope this was of some use.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; Yesterday at 01:45 AM..
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