After posting about the Romanian TR-85M1
I was curious if they had advanced in their tank development or were looking into other options. They formally joined NATO in March 29, 2004
after the Romanian Govt. decided to start the process of joining it in 2002. This brings on it's own set of pressures least of which requires the member nations to comply with NATO weapons standards and communications interoperability. That intial result is the above TR-85M1
If any foreign sales were made we would have heard about by now. So what has been done to this point and what options are being looked at started around 2010 and reached it's peak in early 2014 with the possibility of the TR-84M2
which did not
see the light of day. That story follows like we take our forum members as who they say they are (And I do.
), then I have to do the same for the "tank commanders" that replied to the below GOOGLE translated information from the Romanian Military website as shown here concerning the TR-85M2
With the pictures.
Skip to content
Romania supports the Military!
Learn how to support Romania Military site!
Romanian Army supplied TR-85m2 certainty with many unknowns
TR-85m2 certainty with many unknowns Marius Zgureanu January 26, 2013 - 10:49 Romanian military equipment , military weapons , weapon European , weapons Romanian Army , Tank!
As some already know, our venerable TR-85, besides the clear downward T55, is related to the level of certain systems, and other steel colossus, but "more to the west", namely Leopard 1.
After attempts more or less successful to get a first tank Romanian, namely TR-77 580, certain systems and solutions have been "taken over" by industrial espionage 'resulting TR-85, and then, since 1990, Kraus-Maffei in collaboration with the Leopard 1 tank, resulting TR-85M.
In the article written about 1 year ago " Will Romania a new tank? And if so, how it will look "too little we approached the possible evolution's of TR-85, focusing more on me the fleet modernization T55, but also a new tank design inspired by foreign models of modern tanks ...
In the pictures above and in the near future can notice how similar was the profile turret layout galetilori and certain portions of the chassis (with a profile slightly raised above the runway when Leopard1) between versions TR-85 and Leopard 1 A1 / A2. TR-85 seems kind of hybrid between The Soviet T-55 and German Leopard1.
But I said then that an evolutionary direction for TR-85 as a new 120 mm cannon, preferably Rheinmetall L44 / L55, a new engine from 1200 to 1500 hp and increased protection, and even a new turret system Giat, with Self loading or calling in a low-profile turret, like Falcon system (8 projectiles / minute, and the first 3 can be held in 10 seconds http://www.military-today.com/tanks/falcon_turret.htm
) that would reduce weight up to 10 tons tank, the reserve for adding additional armor.
Giat turret was considered solution and further development of the tank Polish PT-91 TWARDY a T72 improved by a PT-97 version called Cheetah equipped with cannon 2A46 Russian by those from Bumar .
Recently published information about the existence of a clearly defined M2 variants shows that the current turret of TR-85 M1 can smoothly accommodate a 120mm caliber gun, probably German origin ( L-44 ). It is unclear whether the projectile magazine is the same number of shots available - 41 (probably by extending them further into the back of the turret) or will decrease.
In the photos the next can see solutions stretching toward the rear of the turret where both TR-85M and the Leopard 1 A3 to make room for storage of ammunition with superior protection, especially in terms of isolation compartment fighting crew. Also, you can see the similarity between passive thermal vision system at night SAGEM Matis on TR-85M system and night vision systems PZB 200 Leopard 1 A2 / A3.
If Leopard 1 has been considered and developed a variant with 120mm cannon but if it was needed a new turret. Leopard 1A5 turret was initially considered able to receive a 120mm cannon and other optical devices on Leopard2. But subsequently developed a version with additional turret armor - Leopard 1 A6 - which can accommodate 120mm cannon, built one prototype. The project was eventually abandoned in 1987 because there already in service Leopard 2 which was built around the 120mm cannon that have superior performance and protection by design.
An option to keep in mind, if the number of copies TR-85 M2 products to be large enough to purchase a license for production of the gun 120mm in Resita, as the development and improvement and initial alternative cannon Soviet 2A46M (copy Romanian A555) provided for tank TR-125 , so we can provide export both gauges, addressing as many potential markets (like Oplotului Ukrainian) for both. TR-85 and TR-580 upgraded T-55 respectively, similar to a standard T-55AGM.
1000CP and a more compact engine might fit the need and chassis last 2 tanks, TR-580 and T-55AM, or even old motor 8VS-860CP A2T2M of the TR-85M1, with some improvement. Engine TR-85 is one of the reasons why the elongation of the chassis to T-55. T55-AM the Romanian seems to have already received some components of the TR-85 (such as the Cyclop FCS), but does not know whether he passed or is planned to undergo a retrofit similar TR-85M1, even and for eventual export.
Also, although there is information that the tank was tested with an engine Volvo V12 1200CP (which apparently took some swings tabernacle), the current version proposed Colombia contains an aggregate of just 1000CP acceptable by the fact that fit without modifications in slot engine, but with the condition that the weight of the tank M2 will significantly increase after adding armor and other protection systems further so be affected power / weight ratio (hp / ton) which now stands at 17cp / ton, its ideal is an increase by 20hp / t, the initial report of TR-85. As reference, Ukrainian Oplotul receive 26cp / t, with an engine 1200CP, and as M-84AS Serbian and Polish PT-91 stands at 18.5 hp / t (at a total weight of 46t).
As a small aside, M84-AS, although initially licensed product is similar to T-72 T-90, with armor just a little lower but faster (capable of 75 km / h on the road) and more maneuverable. The Serbs had plans to modernize all the 232 M-84 tanks to the standard AS, but apparently not passed 100 pieces, some rumors vehicle and few copies upgraded.
Returning to the TR-85 M2, the fact that the new engine and cannon could be installed without modifications, it is good news in the sense that the whole family TR-85 / M1 could be brought to standard M2 without modifications expensive or complete replacement major components, which means that the price of an upgrade will be basically reduced price rezumandu only weapons, motor, armor and new systems that will be installed and the operation itself.
If we try to guess the future evolution of TR-85 variant M2 and through the other issues (design, armor, systems, table), we should probably take again a look at developments relatives ... more or less distant.
Leopard 1, reached the latest version of the standard A5 series, but the old A3 level was brought to Canadian Forces a new standard - C2:
C2 has mainly armored Additional and some systems taken from Leopard2, such as the targeting ... probably an idea to keep in mind if we have no significant evolution's developed in the country, especially considering the collaboration UM Bucharest with a prestigious German company - Kraus Maffei Wegmann, (KMW).
The new version of TR-85 M2 should benefit from solutions to increase protection liabilities, with new types of armor additional composite and / or NERA to him heightening protection in the field, as well as a significantly improved warning systems and active protection, it is recommended to install a radar system ballistics and have a "hardkill" similar to Trophy. See also the recent article on the subject, taken from Tehnomil " Evolution's, Episode 2 .
At the same time, collaboration with companies from France, Germany or Israel can ensure the evolution of various equipment from TR-85 M2. A similar trend was provided by Israel to the M-60 Patton of the equipping Turkey, resulting in a significant modernization with cannon 120mm and modern equipment, some similar Merkava4 (like drivetrain) but components German (engine MTU 881 KA-501 of 1000CP and transmission Renk) variant called Sabra.
Another noteworthy development has not materialized even in series production, this time for Chinese T55, as Jaguar's from Cadilac Gage Textron. Though provide a more powerful engine Detroit Diesel 8V-92TA, automatic transmission, extra armor plates, new M68 105mm cannon, stabilizer and systems with integrated laser targeting, the project was abandoned after the construction of two prototypes. A similar package can be applied almost entirely of most tanks are in endowment and reserves (how much there) Roman army from T55 to TR-85M1 and for export, instead of turning in scrap vehicles withdrawn from active service but T55 consignments of certain countries.
All these variants solutions should help the TR-85 M2 and tanks already in the inventory can fight at least equals if not to dominate those in the endowment neighbors, from T-55AGM, T64-Bulat, T-72 and T-84 AGL Oplot M to M84AS Ukrainian and Serbian! And that even on their possible developments over the next 5 to 10 years!
TR-85 M2 is a product which could meet the necessary modernization's rapid short-term needs of the Romanian Land Forces, but may have a niche for export. Minimum 5 years from will take the Romanian defense industry to help develop a new generation of tanks, probably only in collaboration with other partner countries, if this is longer desires and we will not disband altogether gun tanks or we will team only import!
In Romania's case, I believe that the current solution, manned by four people, instead of an automatic charging system remains the most appropriate, at least in the next 5-10 years, and TR-85m2 might be best Answer price / capacity combative that can be given Roman army because we can not afford to exploit equipment too sophisticated and expensive nor to be overwhelmed by problems of reliability of systems design ex-Soviet considering that chances are that while conflict outnumbered, we're serious ... K2 Rotem and AMX-56 Leclerc can be considered spearheading the development of modern tanks and may desirable in terms of certain aspects. Romania but only managed to purchase 56 tanks in 15 years costing $ 1.5 million piece ... so a price of 6-8 mil. $ / Piece for a tank and especially high operating costs are impossible to cover in the current economic conditions, budget and political will.
And I hope to see soon, perhaps at the BSDA 2013 even a mock-up if not a TR-85 M2 in "flesh".
" Concepts - MLI MLI after the Romanian-84M "
filiation of TR-85 , leopard one , leopard a1a3 , m 60t sabra , m 84 AS serbia , Rheinmetall L44 / L55 , t 55 jaguar , t 55AGMt 5 AMtr 125 , T-72 AGL , T-55AGM , T55 AM , tank Romanian tr 77 580 , tanks romansti , tr pozzze 77 580 , TR-85 m2 , tr 85m1 , TR 85M1 pressure , TR-77 580 , turret Giat , future tanks in Romanian amateur .
Learn how to support Romania Military site!
Cel.ro 182 Comments:
didi74 January 26, 2013 at 11:23
Marius, if the ultimate goal is not well defined, what comes out. I mean like a bomb TR-85M1 who had only partially defined objectives. Anno Domini a tank in 2013 which has just cast turret is a cart on the road, that's the truth.
It must set goals first, then data solutions, not vice versa:
- Front protection> 1000mm RHA APFSDS,> 1200 mm RHA HEAT
- Lateral protective> 1000mm RHA
- 120 mm cannon
- Report to / cp x
- Maximum weight y
Who has the final objective and sees only what came out is ... classic novel.
If you can solve the structure's objectives TR-85, go for it. If not, leave it as is and dad do something else: import T-72 SH (cost
A're stubborn to modernize something from home had a disability and was behind the design of the moment, it's just plain wrong.
And when it comes to a weapon, accepting a little worse, just because it's designed by the national industry, and it's wrong.
Reply sorin January 26, 2013 at 9:17 p.m.
Total.Viitorul subscribe tank should have thicker frontal armor of 900mm. RPG 29 and 32 pierce 750mm thick armor, maybe even more, that's why I took it as reference thickness.
Both T55 and Leo in January are now especially moral.Daca waste tanks should buy a new tank without having to have too much money, I would rather switch to T84 Oplot.TR our website, be it M2 , I would not tuck into account because it is developed on a platform obsolete, and that does not allow you later, when it is necessary, too many developments.
If you want a tank again, and to us it allow financial, then the cheapest as we engage a country which produces tanks, such as Turkey (at least officially are in friendly relations, cooperation), having operational line production or realize from 0 on a new platform, a modern tank, the environment, together with Kraus-Maffei guys at Wegmann.Stiu as it involves great expense, is necessary to change the production line, the current being adapted to T55 and derivatives its Romanian, and we have no financial bani.Daca not afford one of the two options do not bother to spend the money elsewhere.
Reply IFIM January 26, 2013 at 11:24
An interesting article and well documented. I hope to see as soon inwardly-85-M2, to escape the heavy burden they are only tankman in Romania, I was commander of the tank on all existing types from 1978 to the present, ie T-34, T -55 TR-77-580, TR-85, TR-800, TR-125, TR-85 and T-72 M1. As a tank commander, platoon, company, battalion or unit.
Reply George GMT January 26, 2013 at 12:08
Given this special experience, how would you characterize the T-72 M1 towards modernized ?!
Reply IFIM January 26, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
Great question! 1 August 2001-30 April 2005 while I was commander of the 1st Battalion Tank "Vlad the Impaler" nobody asked me about tanks. At one point, the barracks had 108 tanks of all kinds (except T-34 and TR-77-580), including 30 pcs. 23 T-72 and TR-85 first-M1 manufactured. During the period I ordered the unit in its endowment (the state organization) were 30 T-72, and in addition, up to 40, there were 10 T-55. Subsequently, the organization was changed in TR-85 tanks entered endowment-M1, as we take the factory, and in addition to 54, T-55 and TR-800 upgraded. Even if I repeat, you are the first to ask me a question about tanks, all other care benefits during controls aimed at all sorts of unsuspected aspects, but unrelated to instruction tanks and tanks.
or "Buffalo" is well below a modernized T-72 in firepower, mobility and ability to pass obstacles. Armoured protection, taking it layered with some extra armor would be better than T-72, but has a figure almost twice as high. Here at Armoured protection, I put equal sign. About ability to influence the opponent did not speak on the battlefield it is "violin", there are other systems that handle it. It is superior to the M1 I mean, the transmission system and some systems that did not exist in the 70s has a fire control system, thermal imagers room, a sort of smoke grenade launching system and defensive protection and others close but not so significant as to change my opinion.
Between one-M1 TR-85 and T-72, I would I choose the second.
Thank you for the question asked and probably I will respond once it on modest my blog, where I ask myself a few questions, one of which is what had to be disbanded most representative, not to tell the good tank unit in Romania, for over four years, to be restored, but with a lower endowment?
Reply George GMT January 26, 2013 at 4:38 p.m.
Please post here blog address. I have lots of questions about tanks, have your time to answer me. The asememnea I would like to send me mail address and blog at: firstname.lastname@example.org
Delighted and honored to have among us! Girl abolition battalion equipped with T-72 tanks and reopen equipped with T-55's I have a lot of questions. The answer, most likely, would be incompetent.
T-55 tank already in 2013. totally useless people die in vain in case anything happens.
Reply sorin January 26, 2013 at 9:38 p.m.
If the old T72, modernized, makes ours TR-85-M1, developed after 1989, what to speak of T90MS tank versus tank nostru.Sa not say the army, a new generation tank, his upper T90 MS, which will sweep away loose ours. Sure, if you want to buy Colombians TR-85-M2, then just for them, or export in general (poor countries of the world 3), I repeat, only export, deserves to manufacture.
Reply sorin January 26, 2013 at 9:44 p.m.
Among current Western tanks that would be best for Romania? You for who you choose? T84 Oplot is as powerful as T90 modernized?
Reply sharky January 26, 2013 at 2:39 p.m.
as commander of the tank, which is the difference between TR-85 and TR-800 ???
Reply IFIM January 26, 2013 at 3:36 p.m.
Basically, the difference lies only in the product name.
With the now dead TR-85M2
though in design is better then what they have, they clearly understood it would not be much of a match against a newer modern MBT. I do remember the Romanians looking at cheaper options as noted above, however, as is always the case it boils down to simple economics. They just couldn't afford. The West has helped in development of the M1
and in the options for the M2
. Building on the M2
proposed design features it now appears since around the late 2013/2014 time frame work has continued to the develop the TR-85M3
which will feature a more modern FCS, 120mm SBMG, Auto loader (Which will reduce the crew size to 3
.), additional of add on armor to meet or exceed the expectations noted above for the TR-85M2
and finally a 1400hp engine
and power pack. Though I'm taking to next with a "grain of salt" I,m hopeful since ref. 2 has been so good to me for about ten years now with their data, there might be some truth here, and I can't count how many times they've been ahead in reporting new and modernized versions of equipment "even faster than a speeding JANE's
" or was that something else!?!
Bottom line if true, it should put it in a top tier T-72 variant
I'm hoping hoping this is true because it'd be nice to get something in for someone else besides the "usual suspects". Their is a fair amount of chatter from Russian, Chinese, Romanian and other foreign language sites concerning the TR-85M3
so a little help from one of our forum members in that part of the world would be most helpful to me one way or another
. Like some players (And that's absolutely fine.
) some of our western defense sites don't cover that part of the world to well. If the last two sentences are true in ref. 1
, we should see something by years end that being said most of you know what I'll be doing with this MBT w/o saying the "word
". From Ref.2: "Some sources report that the a new TR-85M3 is under development. It should be fitted with a more powerful engine. This tank will also have new 120-mm or 125-mm gun, as well as improved armor and updated electronic systems."
A little tank news from a hopefully quite place along the "border".
Dinner is ready-and my brain needs food!!