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  #1  
Old June 9th, 2016, 03:43 PM
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Question Cluster Munitions after CCM?

Hiya folks,

I was looking at the UK OoB (at the JSF/ F-35) and noticed that cluster munitions (BL755 Cluster Bomb and M26 Cluster Munition for MLRS) are still in use in the game after 2010. The UK, and over 100 other states, have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions which came in to force in 2010. The UK asserted that it had destroyed ALL its stockpiles of the weapons by 2013.

A quick look at other OBATs showed that other signatories are still (in game at least) using the outlawed weaponry!

Is it the assertion that in event of war countries will ignore the CCM? or that other weapons approximate their, in game, effects? OR do we need to look at those OoB's of signatories?


I guess that I should also ask about the Ottawa Treaty and the use of anti-personnel mines / fascam?
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  #2  
Old June 9th, 2016, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

Its just leftover from the original OOB data written decades ago.

The UK planes probably do need to be pulled, and the MLRS given the unitary HE warhead instead.

Something to do whenever we get round to next years OOB updates.
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Old June 10th, 2016, 03:46 AM
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Fallout Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

I will not engage in nor encourage any political opinions here. This is strictly to provide information on who's signed and not signed these treaties.

CCM Treaty Non-signatories as of 2014 with no changes currently...
http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/...-2014-copy.pdf

Sources...
http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/...overviews.aspx
https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDe...ter=26&lang=en


Sometimes referred to as the Ottawa Convention, the Mine Ban Treaty is officially titled: The Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on Their Destruction. It was adopted in 1997 and it entered into force on 1 March 1999.

Who's In and Who's Out as of well, now...
http://www.icbl.org/en-gb/the-treaty/treaty-status.aspx

Give it a few seconds to bring up the map.

Sources...
http://www.icbl.org/en-gb/the-treaty.aspx
https://treaties.un.org/pages/Treati...ubid=A&lang=en


These sources should have all that is needed I believe to handle the question here. Also within the last couple of years (Or just slightly longer.) this discussion came up in one of the newer CM Threads. Another older one from IMP (John P.) got very involved in the "real world vs. game world" effectiveness of CM & FASCAM weapons. This has been a recurring topic, though I believe this to be the first to bring up treaty issues.

Well Done!

These issues and the willingness of "The DAaa Boyz" to take a look at and action on these types of issues is why this is the best "Tactical Land Warfare" game out there.

Because this is why we don't sit on our...well...seats and do silly Monty Python types things while spinning around and round on them!?!

And since I'm feeling a little "dizzy" right now, I'll just say Good Night or Morning and have a great day!

Regards,
Pat
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Old February 19th, 2017, 02:45 AM
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Fallout Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

I'm just bring this backup since there was some discussion on this topic concerning the upcoming Patch. It was easier to first post the non-signatories to make it easier to "work with" I'll assume this thread is where the "ball got rolling" to make those changes for the 2016/2017 Patch. This is a significant game change and somewhat controversial one given the fact that some signers are looking to upgrade and or maintenance their ammo etc. I reserve the rest of my opinion on the matter until I get to play with it.

Regards,
Pat
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Old February 19th, 2017, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

It's already done and there will be no further changes before release
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Old February 19th, 2017, 01:26 PM
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Fallout Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

I agree, like I said in my last, I want to play with it. You could almost say "Be careful for what you wish for, it just might come true!" I believe though it'll provide an interesting "twist" to the game. Upon looking back on the list last night, I was somewhat surprised to see Finland didn't sign onto the ban.

Regards,
Pat
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Old February 19th, 2017, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
I agree, like I said in my last, I want to play with it. You could almost say "Be careful for what you wish for, it just might come true!" I believe though it'll provide an interesting "twist" to the game. Upon looking back on the list last night, I was somewhat surprised to see Finland didn't sign onto the ban.

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If I were Finland I wouldn't either.......
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Old February 19th, 2017, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

Why the fudge did Greece sign it (mine ban)...Or Cyprus? Oh my...
At least we still have the cluster munitions and didn't do a complete cluster fudge.
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Old February 19th, 2017, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wdll View Post
Why the fudge did Greece sign it (mine ban)...Or Cyprus? Oh my...
At least we still have the cluster munitions and didn't do a complete cluster fudge.
Well AT mines are excempt from the treaty...and these are the mines that are vital to the defense of the border.
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Old February 19th, 2017, 06:41 PM
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Fallout Re: Cluster Munitions after CCM?

That is absolutely true AT mines are excluded even if it's known to carry people outside of the crew of said vehicle. It appears Ireland was in the forefront of this as amended...

Article 2 (3):
"It is the understanding of Ireland that the word `primarily' is included in article 2, paragraph 3 of the amended Protocol to clarify that mines designed to be detonated by the presence, proximity or contact of a vehicle as opposed to a person, that are equipped with anti-handling devices, are not considered anti-personnel mines as a result of being so equipped.”


Most of the countries seeking amendments to the treaty deferred to Ireland as follows as taken from China's position...

"[Same declaration, mutatis mutandis, as the one made by Ireland.]"

Again as posted previously above, with the countries amendments at the bottom, below the list of signatories to the treaty...
https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDe...r=26&clang=_en


The treaty also covers the border as amended and understood by Canada and France in a similar fashion. From Canada...

"3. It is understood that the maintenance of a minefield referred to in Article 10, in accordance with the standards on marking, monitoring and protection by fencing or other means set out in Amended Protocol II, would not be considered as a use of the mines contained therein."

So in the game this type of minefield would be useless as in the real world. Your enemy would just go around them or use equipment to detonate them and clear a path as we did so well in Iraq. And the real game issue hear is it would have to show up on the map so both players could see it.

But I believe the game doesn't distinguish between AP and AT mines I don't think. A mine is a mine, if you will.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; February 19th, 2017 at 06:54 PM..
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