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Old May 27th, 2019, 07:35 AM

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Default German vs Soviet Strategy

In here i will mention something from the Germany vs Russian matchup in 5 / 1944 Metting Engagement battles.


GERMANY


Especially ineffective units: Pz3 and Pz4 should be avoided if not for the historial purposes. They have too low armor and cost too much when compared to something like a Panther, Puma or Sturmpanzer.

Especially effective units: Schleppen (8 pts), Panzerschreck (9 pts), Pueppchen (13 pts), Infantry Squad (21 pts), SS Infantry (25 pts), Puma (45 pts), StuH (50 pts), Ju 88 P-2 (68 pts), Sturmpanzer 4 (78 pts)


Air Strikes: German has the best air strikes in the game, those with the large calibre guns are especially effective, especially Ju 88 P-2 as it is cheap and has two effective guns to maximaze the potential to take down tanks. German Air Strikes should heavily focuse against Soviet armor, especially on JS-2.


German Infantry: The basic composition of Infantry squad with StG, LMG 42, Granade and Panzerfaust is an effective all round setup. If you want to be dirty, take the mechanized groups without APC's and load them as you like (as they have superior LMG's and Panzerschrecks with the same cost as regular squads). There is little need for specialized squads other than Panzerschrecks in the German unit composition, as the basic composition works well against anything.

11 pts Kraftradmelder squads are good scouting units for advances and should be taken to scout before any advances (probably 2-4 sections) and German Motorcycle troops are also superior when compared to Soviet Motorcycle troops, and are also superior when compared to any Cavalry so if feeling like it, one company of Mototrcycle troops could serve as an advancing force where there are no roads to be had and the advance must be immediate. Reinforcing a motorcycle company with Kradschutzen MG section is also adviceable.

Snipers are always good in open positions, especially when the idea is to focus on killing infantry. A couple of them in a carefully chosen positions is always good for all armies.

I would avoid using Flamethrower infantry and focus on more numerous number of basic troops, and keep the Flamethrowers as an armoured weapon as they have a longer range and may be shot behind the infantry advance.

If feeling especially dirty, a BegleitGren Zug is quite effective company when using the BegleitGren Trp / MG42 LMG setup to have 13 Size 0 units with +3exp/morale for around 150 pts. I would advice against taking more than one of these companies, as it could get a bit silly. These are especially valuable when focusing against Soviet Infantry.


German Armour: The main composition should be build around Stuh and Sturmpanzers, as they can be used as an cost effective way to transport, and support infantry. Especially Sturmpanzers are really effective, as they have the potential to penetrate all Soviet Armor, have more HEAT rounds than StuH and are more effective when used as a fire support unit to supress, or outright destroy enemy infantry units.

Panthers should be kept as a limited units for any areas where there are lots of visibility and kept in the back, where their armor glances most of the hits. Panthers are too costly to be used as a full front line tanks and Stumpanzers work too well in that role already.

Like said, all advanceds should be first scouted with motorcycle scouts, and covered by Puma Armoured Car. They are also very useful and have a multi purpose role as they can be easily moved between different locations and being able to reinforce the sudden advances in other areas of the map as well. Let's say an army has 4 to 6 Puma platoons in different locations, they may be all (or most of them) gathered and moved to one location with relative ease. Having 10+ Puma's to suddenly reinforce a position can make the difference.

Schleppen (8 pts) is a nice and cheap unit to be taken with spare points, for let's say about 10 Schleppens (80 pts) that are reinforcing different locations and acting as a fire support / infantry hunting units. There should always be at least couple of them as they cost next to nothing.


German Artillery: German artillery should focus heavily on 8cm Mortars as they tend to work well against infantry. Try to find spots where infantry resides within Clear hexes. Further artillery pieces that are powerful are 15cm Sig and 28cm Rockets. 10.5cm Field Guns or Wespe Mobile Artillery should be taken as an counter battery role.



German Tactics: As German has a wide variety of Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts in their disposal, i suggest to heavily focus on destroying russian infantry in the positions where there are lots of covers (cities, forest and such) and using lots of German infantry in those areas, making use of the Soviet panzers almost impossible and letting even the cheapest panzers (like Schleppe = 8 pts) to destroy Soviet infantry as they can only destroy armored targets with an assault.

The main unit composition should contain regular infantry, SS infantry and Stuh / Sturmpanzer 4.

All the advances should be covered by Puma Armourd Cars so that they move as far as they can in turn 1 (preferably by a road) and stay stationary in turn 2 (preferably having angles to target sides) and thus covering the advances in turn 2.

Avoid using Halftracks and other rather costly APC:s and use Armoured Trucks instead. The ideal composition for transporting troops would be to have one platoon to be transported with faster Armoured Truck or Panthers, one platoon + HQ being transported with slower Assault Guns such as StuH or Sturmpanzer and one platoon going by foot.

In this way one platoon can advance for alpha positions and the second platoon may reinforce it, or take positions in other side of the platoon. The last platoon with foot may reinforce either of these postions or act as a reserve.

Preferably this works best with a road and the initial positions are taken within first 2-3 turns of the battle.

It is also preferable to have one foot company as an supporting element for each mechanized company as in ww2 the transports are not as fast or cost effective as in most of the MBT setups.


Artillery Tactics: As there are only one priority target in ww2, it must be chosen wisely and preferably for a target for high calibre Rocket Launchers. 8cm Mortars should be spread across the battlefield and Ammo Carriers should be positioned so, that they may first reload the Field Guns (Or Rocket Launchers) and travel to reload 8cm Mortars within 1 turn when they are empty, and travel back when they are reloaded.

I usually make 2 to 3 artillery bases, which are usually guarded with FLAK units that also act as a fighting force against possible paratroops. I also position the artillery so, that the field guns have good field of visions over possible drop locations.

This is more easily done with Soviet, because they have cheaper FLAK and Armoured Car units in their disposal.

If General Support is available, one unit of 15cm General support (-50%) artillery that is used in together with several high calibre Rocket Launchers are enough with the target priority hex to create one No Go zone in the field (if necessary). The inaccuracy of the General Support artilery should really not matter in this case, as it only barrages the same area for the whole game.


Potential Problems: The first problem is the JS-2, which has a really good front armor, and is not easily penetrated by anything else than the most effective guns.

This is the reason why couple of Nashorns may serve well in an open areas. This is also the reason why German should focus on destroying the enemy infantry as Soviet needs their infantry to protect their tanks agains Panzerschrecks / Fausts they themselves are lacking.

This is also a reason, why Sturmpanzer 4 is probably the best armoured unit in mid / close range as they are one of the few units that can penetrate (or at least cause a damage) Js-2 due to their Warhead Size in the short / medium range.

Other potential problems might be numerous infantry units and Numerous anti-air assets.

I would advice against focusing heavily on Paradrops against Soviets, because they have lots of cheap and mobile units to guard their flanks and because German needs their infantry especially on the front line. If Paradrops are to be used, i would advice on a small (and preferably size 0) troop on a single location.

Last edited by Isto; May 27th, 2019 at 09:53 AM..
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  #2  
Old May 27th, 2019, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

Interesting...


I guess you and your opponent don't care about any form of historical correctness...
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Old May 27th, 2019, 08:46 AM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

SOVIET


Especially Effective Units: Infantry Squad (17 pts), Su-57 (35 pts), T-3m Captured Tank (66 pts), Js-2 (104 pts).


Soviet Armor: There are no real reason to take the cheaper Su-76M over Su-57 as Su-57 have better accuracy, it is faster, and better against Infantry due to having a machine gun.

Su-57 is probably the single, and most effective unit in the Soviet roster. The second being Js-2.

The T-70 Light Tank M1942 could act as a wild card in a area with lots of cover as it can potentially destroy the weakest of the German forces from close range, and even the heavier ones with a flank shot.

I would advice to take company of these and load Partisans or Tankodesatniki on them, to overflow one specific area of the battlefield with armoured units and cheap infantry.

Potentially there should also be an infantry company and a conscript or penal company and some other tanks in that area where the Light Tanks are used. They may also be used without Tankodesantiki for their sole tank shock value. They are also quite small, so they might be able to sneak to the flank of a enemy tank in the forest terrain if they are supressed.

As the speed might be an issue when advancing, T-34 and especially Su-85 can have their roles. Otherwise Soviet Armour should focus heavily on Js-2 and Su-57. As for T-34, i would prefer the cheaper, better armoured one.

Su-57 are also so cheap, that they may be used aggressively to advance in turns 2-3 to the front to acquire some cheap shots in the early game. There should preferably be tens of these vehicles in the army.

As for Flame Tanks, Kv-8s seems to be the superior choice here as it has a high Top Armor value and may be positioned under a barrage to halt the enemy advance in a forest terrain.

BA-64 should be used to scout all advances and at least 2 companies should be taken as some of them may be positioned to protect artillery for possible air strikes and paradrops, and to act as a reserve.

The captured t-3m tank should probably only be wielded as a support platoon and positioned on an area with lots of cover to get shots from short, to mid range where their 5cm gun is able to penetrate. This also provides a rather cost effective way to transports some infantry.

Another unit that may be used as a multi purpose role is M10 3in, which can acts as a transport and be used in a similar way than Su-57. In addition, they have a probability to damage planes so having them as a support element is not a bad choice.

Main Composition: Js-2 / Su-57.
Support Composition: T-70 M1942 / KV-8s
Transport Composition: T-34 / Su-85
Scouting Composition: BA-64 + Motorcycle Squad


Soviet Infantry: Should focus deeply on the basic infantry company with the Rifle / Lmg / Smg / Anti tank Mine + Granadier setup as granadiers may be used as a cheaper squads to advance, and take the heat.

Other notable units might be: Guards Infantry (when needing extra stability), Conscripts (When needing to overflow an area with mass of bodies, which also fits to the theme), Partisan HMG's + Sniper (One platoon to support fire on a given area), Partisan (8 pts 5 men squad) + Sniper.

As the German infantry composition, Russian infantry composition is also fine with mostly, or only basic infantry squads.

I would say that Partisans offer a cheap support squad to the open areas as they come with cheap 2 men sniper teams.

It also gives variety, and lets the more bulky infantry squads to take the front line as the Partisans are guarding a static area.

Conscripts might also offer some variety in some areas where lots of infantry casualties are expected, or when assaulting towns.

Most of the Soviet infantry are fine without transports, as they severally lack good, cheap and effective transports and T-34 and Su-85 should be used over Js-2 and Su-57 composition only in fronts, where infantry needs to advance quickly, and even then a platoon is usually enough (followed by a slower Js-2 platoon, an the last platoon with foot + support foot company / companies)

If paratroops are to be used, i would advice on Glider Scout teams as they provide rather cheap drops (58 pts) to threaten the artillery / support elements.


Soviet Air Units: Soviet fighter planes lack the effective guns of the German planes, and should be used as a large Shock Fleet that uses AT Bomblets in the first turns and acting as a harassment element against German artillery and support in the later turns. I would advice to take 2 Shturmoviks as the front, 2-4 Britchnik as a lasting strike planes and 2 Yak 9B as the last strikes, as they have no armor.

Or another approach would be Britchniks first and Yak planes second. This also depends on how many Air Sorties are available but if there are enough to take 6+ planes, the planes can often overflow a single position as the FLAK units must be spread over the battlefield.

Britchniks are especially good when attacking against Mortars, Ammo Trucks and Field Guns, and they have more ammunition so they tend to offer more runs than Shturmovik.

As Germans have cheaper Ob Plane and Soviet have an array of cheaper strike planes, i would suggest taking Fighter or Bomber planes instead to use for scouting purposes.


Soviet Artillery: Soviet Rocket Launchers are superior to German Rocket Launchers as they are otherwise quite similar, but have more range. The high calibre ones are really good against everything especially as the Soviets field only 15cm artillery as an Off-map battery.

Soviet should probably use somewhat similar composition than was suggested in the German's section, but focus more heavily on 122mm Field gun than Germany, as they lack the 15cm platform.

The same tactics are valid here, but are easier to perform as soviet has some cheap (17 pts) Flak units and (10 pts) BA-64 Armoured Cars.

Some (2-4) Guards IG Pl - 76.2mm orb43 IG (17 pts) might also be advisable, to bombard the supposed areas where there might be TD's that are open topped.

Soviet also has cheaper Munition units, which should be taken advantage of.



Soviet Tactics: Soviet army should focus on having more units than the Germany, especially on infantry as they rely on it to protect their tanks against the threat of Panzerschrek / Faust and Soviet player should never move their armor in an area, that have not been cleared of German infantry.

I think the Su-57 is the key unit here, as it serves a multi purpose role against anything, and mostly against enemy armor.

Do not fear on bringing the Su-57 to the front lines, as there should be more in the reserve and Su-57 should really be used in all locations and fronts.

They should however be vary of enemy artillery fire but if the map is large, there are lots of ground to cover and it is a definite advantage to have lots of capable units.

Js-2 however, may be used in a rather outrageous ways, if there are no panzerschrecks / Faust / 88 / Nashorn or similar to be had. Use lots of cover, smoke and advance to the mid range and sometimes fight even on long range if no 88 / Nashorns are present in the area.

Infantry on the front, Js-2 behind them, and Su-57 behind Js-2 and preferable in more than one layer (as with infantry).

Do not bother with AT guns, as they do not have sufficient power to penetrate and the Su-57 is in every way, more cost efficient.

Last edited by Isto; May 27th, 2019 at 09:02 AM..
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Old May 27th, 2019, 08:49 AM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

Purpose of this article is to make an effective strategy when using the assets that are available to a commander in a given setup.

I am sure that any past, present, and future commander that has a focus on winning the battle will try to do so.
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Old May 27th, 2019, 09:31 AM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

Here is an example of a Soviet list that is built around 10 000 pts.

7 Infantry Company (Granadier / Sg43 MG)
1 SMG Company
1 Conscripts Company
2 Partisan (8 pts) + Sniper Company
1 Partisan HMG + Sniper Platoon
3 Tank Hunters (Anti-Tank Mine)
1 Glider Scout Section
1 Sniper (9 pts)

6 82mm Mortar Sec
4 BM-31 Andryusha
4 76.2mm obr43 IG
12 122mm M-30 FH
1 152mm m-10 Bty (General Support)
2 Ammo Suply
8 Ammo Truck

3 Tupolev TB-3 Levelel Bomber
2x2 P-39N Britchnik
2 Yak-9B

7 GAZ-AA-37 Platoon

2 BA-64 Company
1 T-70 M1942 Company
2 IS-2 Company
4 Su-57 Battery
1 Su-85 Battery
1 Kv-8s Platoon
1 M10 3in Section

= 10026 pts

346 Units
116 Formations

Last edited by Isto; May 27th, 2019 at 09:45 AM..
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Old May 27th, 2019, 08:55 PM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

That's alot of battle points. I don't ever play such a big game, unless its in MBT where the tanks are alot more expensive.

Just some quick comments.

1. Airstrikes for Meeting Engagements, I feel this is very difficult to plan for as you only have 1 pre-planned spot. Meeting engagements tend to be more fluid over the entire map, so I don't really spend points on airstrikes for such a battle.

2. The points. Especially for WW2, each infantry coy is worth around 500 points, and for a standard battalion, you can usually set it up with around 1800 points. For a Armoured Battle Group, just augment with an armour coy and it tops up at not more than 2500-3000 points. 116 formations is just too much. I rather work with just 25-30 formations and make sure everyone is useful and important. Reserves should not make up more than 10% of your battlegroup for Meeting Engagement, if at all.

3. While most of Pz3 and Pz4 are not the most effective units, I think they still play a useful role in killing smaller enemy armour such as recon units. Ammo can be a concern, so I rather not expose my heavy AT assets too early, or waste their precious SABOT/ AP on enemy that can be destroyed by smaller assets.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 10:12 AM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

This have not been though as well as the Soviet example as i have zero experience playing with Germans.

6 Infantry Company (Stg + MG42 + Panzerfaust)
2 VGren Company (Schreck + 9 pts Sniper)
1 SS Company (StG + Sniper + Schreck setup)
1 BelgeitGren Zug (Begleitgren + MG43)
3x2 Kraftradmelder
4x3 Panzerschreck
2x2 Sniper

2x3 Pueppchen
2 Kfz 70 Protze
2x1 Kubelwagen

15cm Batterie (General Support)
4x2 8cm GrW Group
2x2 10.5cm Haubitze
2x2 PzH 18 Wespe
4x2 IG 15cm SiG
4 Skdfz 251/1 Rak
4 Munitions LKW
4 Munitionswagen
2 Ammo Dump

3x2 Ju 88 P-2
2 Hs 129 B-3/Wa
2 Fieseler Stroch

2x2 3.7cm Flak 36
2 Skdfz 10/4 Flak
4x2 Mobelwagen
6x2 Inf-AAMG (MG34 AAMG)

6x3 Skfz 234/2 Puma
4x2 Schlepper UE630
2 FwPzKw B2 740(f)
2 Sdkfz 251/16 Fl

4x2 PzKw Panther G
2x2 Nashorn

6x3 Sturmpanzer IV
5x3 StuH 42 Ausf.F
2x2 StuH 42 Ausf.F
4x2 Armoured Truck

= 10000 pts

327 Units
128 Formations

Last edited by Isto; May 30th, 2019 at 11:13 AM..
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Old June 1st, 2019, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

Up vote Scorpio’s comment you are just playing a game no historical correctness at all.

Don’t get me wrong when I first started bought the good stuff but with WWII in particular with its wide variety of units the fun comes in coping with them and adopting your play style accordingly. Interestingly the game is good enough if you play with semi historical accuracy you find your self using tactics similar to real life because they work.
The diversity of units is what makes WWII great compared to most modern battles, A KV or Tiger showing up can cause problems like it should if you don’t have a counter.

Level bomber is an odd pick however.

PBEM done this in the past
One player buys both sides save as a scenario
Send to other player and let him chose the side to play.

Better is send it or a list of units if they can follow it so they can buy those exact units.
If you set the force size slightly larger once bought they can buy a few more units as they wish to stop you knowing exactly what you are facing.
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Old June 1st, 2019, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

The level bomber class was only ever introduced for scenarios, like say the time in Normandy when the USAAF slagged the enemy defences preparatory to the assault. (And dropped short, killing a general, IIRC). or for a modern scenario with an Arclight strike on tap.

They are pretty useless things that just goto x,Y roughly and offload some unaimed big eggs then wander off. Probably the least useful class in the game and only as I said - I included them for historical use only. Pretty worthless outside a scenario where they are pre-planned as they have a 12 or so turn delay (and that should probably be much more).

But, having the class available meant that some of our OOB design team way back when just had to have squillions of the things in there "just because". Waste of perfectly good OOB slots IMHO, any OOB really just needs a few representative bombers on the off chance a scenario designer wanted to use them. Worthless things for the regular player, and looking back, why did I bother!
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Old June 1st, 2019, 07:44 AM

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Default Re: German vs Soviet Strategy

I myself am pretty thankful there are bombers to be had. So at least there is one person who does appreciate your effort in the past.

In my opinion Tupolev Bombers are quite good as they are a low cost unit and can threaten a tank.

In the current game some german planes must have attacked some of them as they dropped the bombs too late. Could also be a technical malfunction, but i highly doubt it.

The variety to be had in the WW2 rosters are what makes them superior compared to MBT's. Let's say a MBT roster has only couple of different infantry squads available and you only spam "Infantry Company" makes the game a lot more dull than let's say in ww2 you can have Cavalry, Motorcycle, Partisans, Penal, Conscripts, Guards, Infantry and so on. There is a lot more variety and that is a strong point in a game in my opinion. It is no wonder though, as the ww2 rosters are based on an actual war and most of the MBT rosters are not, so you really can not know what those countries would come up with in an actual war.

There are many type of Steel Panther players to be had. Some like to play PBEM games and enjoy building armies without knowing their opponents armies and some like to play scenarios. I suspect most of the players like the scenarios and probably most of the players play only against AI. PBEM Meeting Engagement battles are probably not very popular in the big picture.

There could be another thread about strategies in specific scenarios but in my opinion the scenarios are only playable once, as the fun in them is the variety and not knowing what to expect. So spoiling the strategy would probably spoil part of the fun on them. There are also a lot of quality differences in them, but some of them are really good. Ww2 Scenario number 32 "Rivermen" have probably been the best so far. There are also couple others, but do not remember their names or numbers.

In my little experience (20-30 PBEM scenario battles, 2-3 vs AI), ww2 seems to have the better scenarios by far.

Those two armies i mentioned as an example could be used in a game Imp suggested. Please do try and report to this thread how it goes ?

Mobhack vs Imp. Soviet vs Germany armies made by my example, do it.

Large map and 30 or so turns. Victory hexes in the middle.

I predict soviet loses no matter who plays with it.

Last edited by Isto; June 1st, 2019 at 08:34 AM..
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