Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log

[Soyweiser]

It is very hard not to reply here. But I'm not going to. As I do not want to be banned. (Hi Strider!)

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

So your argument is that any person has done it, but they shouldnt do it, so you should be able to continue insulting them while presenting your ideas? And that means they should read, and consider, and be willing to appear to cave in to your expertise?

No, you're missing the point of my argument so I will try and provide more details for you to understand. My point is that they're countless numbers of different people, different cultures, and different personalities all across the world. One individual might voice their ideas/opinions and sound rude yet to another individual they sound excited and the original person might feel they're presenting themselves in yet another different way. Knowing there's individuals across the world which lack the social skills, language skills, or possibly deal with personality deficiencies is more than enough reason why the presentation should be a *small* variable when reviewing a list of ideas presented. On the same note I would rather have a veteran experienced mechanic with a sailors foul mouth working on my vehicle as compared to the inexperienced pretty college girl. Here's another common quote... "Don't judge a book by it's cover" . It's unwise to ignore a good book or a good idea simply because the presentation or apppearance is bad. I hope this help you understand.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Oh yeah. I can see that. That argument would apply to any "they" I know. Unless of course I know them personally. Then of course, I cant think of anyone who would do that at all. Even the wimpiest person that I know who is usually willing to acknowledge that he knows nothing, no I cant even see him doing it if the challenge was made publicly.

I can't think of anyone which ever made challenges or demands, yet even if someone did make challenges or demands the presentation should have little value when matching against other ideas. I can surely say ideas of near equal value is where the presentation should make a difference. As mentioned earlier I would want the king which could deliver the enchanted training equipment as compared to the king which couldn't see beyond the presentation of the rude magical merchant.
REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
Sometime last year I was working with many map makers together on building a massive map for AoW:SM. During development a few of the different personalities from across the world clashed. I was able to see beyond the unsavory presentations/personalities and stablized communications preventing content from being deleted off the map because the production of their *ideas* is what's important.

[momfreeek]

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
Sometime last year I was working with many map makers together on building a massive map for AoW:SM. During development a few of the different personalities from across the world clashed. I was able to see beyond the unsavory presentations/personalities and stablized communications preventing content from being deleted off the map because the production of their *ideas* is what's important.

commendable team management but isn't the COE development team just 2 brothers?

- creative tensions amongst a team must be managed.
- criticism is useful and should be heard.
- abusive customers are not to be encouraged.

right?

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by momfreeek

commendable team management but isn't the COE development team just 2 brothers?

What's important is the final product... sometimes you need to get your hands dirty to pickup the diamond. If there's a diamond of an idea from a dirt mud customer it's still worth collecting. I might totally despise a specific tailor, mechanic, merchant or "customer", but I'm not communicating with them for social reasons. I'm dealing with them because of the good tailor skills, good mechanical advice or the good idea because it's about the better final product.

Originally Posted by momfreeek

- creative tensions amongst a team must be managed.
- criticism is useful and should be heard.
- abusive customers are not to be encouraged.

right?

I would also not encourage anyone to place their hands in animal waste, however a diamond("good_idea") should still be collected... even if you get your hands dirty. Taking the good idea and then dealing with abusive, rude or annoying customers can be done separately. A wise king would find a way of getting both accomplished instead of sacrificing one of them.

If desired I can provide you details for such a solution.

[Gandalf Parker]

I keep saying ask nice, and you keep saying that in the real world you shouldnt have to.
I understand what you are saying. Obviously no one is going to be convinced here.
Good luck with your future endeavors.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I keep saying ask nice, and you keep saying that in the real world you shouldnt have to.
I understand what you are saying. Obviously no one is going to be convinced here.
Good luck with your future endeavors.

I agree asking nice helps, but a good idea or a good diamond shouldn't be ignored/rejected based on its presentation.

[momfreeek]

I respect Illwinter enough to think that they probably know what they are doing. If their attitude is "ignore the asshats and have fun" then I'll take that as good advice for hobby game development. I assume its healthy for long term motivation which is more important than any single suggestion.

[llamabeast]

Your comments on how people *should* be, NTJedi, may be correct but are irrelevant. Gandalf is saying that if you want your ideas to be heard by Illwinter, you should present them well. He's saying that from having worked closely with them over years and heard their preferences. It's practical advice for dealing with these particular people.

For once I completely agree with Gandalf, which is quite special.

From my own experience with CBM:
- I have been lucky not to deal with much outright negative feedback, for which I am grateful
- Constructive criticism is appreciated and is fine. If it is well written and thoughtful I enjoy reading it.
- Occasionally someone will just say "X sucks" or something, and I ignore them. I can't be bothered to ask why because they show no sign of coherent thinking.
- Similarly poor spelling and grammar decreases the perceived value of a comment. If you can't take enough care to even write what you're trying to say properly, it throws some doubt on whether you've taken the time to think through your point.
- If someone were to "demand" a feature I think I would be very likely to ignore them, unless it was obviously a great idea. It would also be demotivating.
- Purely positive feedback (e.g. "I really love the Open the Seal spell!") is very motivating. However this community is extremely generous and produces plenty of this so we are very lucky.

Rereading the above it looks a bit egotistical. I'm not saying all this because I think you all really care about my emotional reaction to the CBM thread, but rather just as a case study of human reactions to feedback.

[samoht]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

I agree asking nice helps, but a good idea or a good diamond shouldn't be ignored/rejected based on its presentation.

You might also be making the mistake of assuming all suggestions are diamonds.

If there is a field of filth with a bunch of rocks in it, and maybe a couple of quarters, I'm not even going to bother. If somebody tells me there is a single diamond out there, somewhere, in that field of dung? Umm... I don't know if I'm that desperate.

A lot of the suggestions presented regarding CoE have been... weak, regardless of their presentation.

[Gandalf Parker]

A lot of the suggestions about CoE you can tell the people havent played the whole game, or tried the different levels. Or even read the manual. Yes its been hard to weed out real suggestions.

On the other hand, its nice to see the devs on a roll again in the new forum. They respond to peoples posts. The updates are coming regularly. Sometimes a players suggestion or bug report is changed on the progress log that same day.