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  #1  
Old September 13th, 2017, 04:19 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Tank machine guns

Moebelwagen, these didn't have Bow MG's, yours do, they should be removed. Germany unit 175 both 2cm vierling (not in OOB) and 3.7cm versions.
Crusader AA tanks do not have a BMG yours do, they should be removed. units 080 and 105 Great Britian. 185 Polish OB. Units 80 and 105 Canada
Chris Bishops Encyclopedia of weapons of WWII says
The bow machine gun could not be fitted to DD shermans.
The bow machine may have been removed as part of sealing the lower hull. The folded DD skirt would completely block the line of fire of the bow machine gun anyway.
I think DD Sherman need to have their bow machine guns removed, USA unit 13, GB unit 24 canada unit 24.
Im not sure where I saw this but I believe that in german service the platoon commaders 38t had no BMG as it was replaced by a radio.

British tanks rarely had AA MG's on tank roofs, a quick look at the internet confirms this. These Great Britian units need the 30 cal AA MG removed 003, 004, 021, 022, 023, 023, 024, 025, 026, 050, 111, 117, 151, 154, 185, 194, 198, 221, 222, 255, 296, 302, 490 and 491.
Same policy holds in these countries as far as I know also internet images seem to confirm this.
So remove the 30 cal AA MG from these units also,
In the Polish OOB units 008, 009, 015, 018, 026, 027, 028, 045, 066, 200, 201, 203, 429, 491.
In the Australia/New Zeaand OOB units 003, 004, 012, 024, 025, 026, 043, 050, 111, 117, 160(should change 30 cal AA MG to Bren Bow MG), 161, 341, 342.
Canadian units 003, 004, 005, 005 (appears twice?) 008, 008 (appears twice?), 013, 021, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 028, 029, 031, 035, 050, 111, 117, 149, 160, 160 (twice), 220, 221 222, 223, 224.
Canadian unit 349 firefly tulip needs the BMG removed.
Same applies for the 50 cal AAMG in these OOBs, should be removed from
British OOB units 040, 141, 305, 335.
Polish OOB units 029, and 030.
Canadian OOB units, 005, 010, 040, 141, 160, 315.
Australian/NewZealand OOB units, 015, 140.
In the rare event a British tank has a AA MG then it is usualy the BREN gun.
I think maybe the USA was about the only country that had turret roof mounted AA MG's. German AA MGS I'm told were usually the Bow MG put on the roof and then only in rear areas. German Unit 984 should have a MG 34 AA instead of a MG42 AA. If not completely removed.
German unit 006 Flamingo has a Bow MG (Kugelblende) in the turret, replace weapon 176 7.92mm MG34 TMG with weapon 006 7.92mm MG34 BMG. The sights for this Turret BMG were graduated to 200m
Same applies to units 172 and 855, pz 1 command tanks these are also in ball type mounts with the same telescope.
(Though Jentz says in tank combat in north africa these sights were graduated to 800m in the Pz 1 command tank.)
USA unit 023 Calliope has a bow MG and coxial MG, but yours doesnt. Maybe use one of the 3 Rocket slots so it can have at least one of these?

From the Osprey book japanese tanks 1939-45 and the web
It seems no japanese tank has a coaxial MG. several of yours do. Looking at cutaways it appears the turret MG mounting is exactly the same as the bow MG mounting so the TMG or CMG should be replaced with a BMG.
Also especially for those with the rearward facing Turret MG and a one man turret, the BMG, TMG and turret main gun couldnt all fire at the same time, maybe remove the hull BMG and double MG ammo loadout to show this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heE5GyHJ6Xw
Says the Japanese type 97 BMG rear sight is marked from 200m to 1400m, the associated telescope to gives a view of 1.5 x 30 degrees. The gun is a copy of the czech zb26. So maybe greater range for this BMG, maybe 24?

German Bow MG telescopes were 1.8x 18 degrees or 1.75x 18 degrees
Different Bow MGs seem to have different ranges. In Jentz, Chamberlain and Doyles Encyclopedia of German tanks of World war 2 it gives ranges for MG13/34/42 in the German KgZF1/2 ball mounts as 200m. (thats nearly every german tank.) But Jentz says the MG37(t) in the MGZF38(t) ball mounting with a 2.6x telescope has a range of 1700m! These guns are in the czech 38t and 35t. Maybe these guns should have a greater range then? maybe 24?, but
The british BMG, the BESA is a copy of this czech gun so maybe should also have 24 range?, but
P.M.Knights book A15 cruiser Mk VI Crusader tank a technical history says this
Under the best range conditions and with our best M.G. equipments the hits on a 15 ft screen during an approach run from 800 to 400 yards seldom exceeds 15% and this with a fully controlled gun.
This refers to the hull turret mounted BESA and possible the tank is moving.
Russian Bow MGs also had a dedicated telescope.

The A10 BMG seems to be restricted to elevation only.
http://tank-photographs.s3-website-e...bovington.html
The General lee tank also has BMGs that are adjustable in elevation only.
maybe these type of traverse restricted BMGs should have a range of 8 or less?

George forty book tank warfare in ww2 mentions that
Even the .30 calibre ball mounted bow gunners machine gun, without any gunsight , was accurately controlled by watching the tracer through the periscope. We could roll a burst of fire into a hat at a couple of hundred yards.
So maybe USA .30cal BMG should have a range of 200m same as german equipments or maybe a little less as there is no telescope.

Vickers Medium tank unit 125 should have a vickers T/CMG (137) removed and replaced by two vickers BMGs (238) firing to either side not the front, giving 3 MGs. Some were used at Mersa Matruh and Tobruk.
Ospreys book The Rolls Royce Armoured Car shows that the turret Vickers MG is sometimes in a ball mounting, ie just like a BMG. Otherwise it is mounted in a very simple yoke with no gearing and fires over an open sight. This is similar to the Italian tankettes L 3-35 where this type of configuration gets a range of only 10 which is probably what the Rolls Royce Armoured car should also have instead of 24. Same probably applies for units like the 130 Lanchester AC and Japanese type 92 SNLF and no doubt most of the interwar armoured cars and tankettes that appear in the game. It would be safe to change all rifle calibre TMG ranges from 24 to 12/10.

Jamie Prenatt's book Polish armour of the blitzkrieg says this in reference to the wz.29 armoured car.
The turret also had an antiaircraft mount, but its use was discontinued in the mid-1930s when increasing aircraft speed made it impractical
Your unit 569 still has the AA MG probably should be replaced with a BMG or maybe a TMG as in unit 574 and double MG ammo. This vehicle has one MG in the rear and one at the back quarter of the turret same as the japanese layout apparently this was to balance the turret.

Gordon Rottmans Book on the 50 cal gives an effective AA range for the .50 cal of 800-900 yards

He explains it this way

With a flexable hand held gun not locked onto position, it is virtually impossible to hold it steady on a target on all but the shortest-range targets

The War department field manual 23-65 for the Browing Machine gun calibre .50 agrees saying this

Low flying aircraft which come within a slant range of 600 through 800 yards can be taken under effective fire. Fire is never opened at ranges in excess of 1000yds.
and this
The dispersion of the calibre .50 machine gun is excessive when fired as a free gun.
(that is in any mounting except a tripod)

So .50 cal AA MG and TMG should be range of 20 or less not 40

Ospreys book Humber light Reconnaissance car 1941-45 says the bren mounted in this vehicle has a range of 500m. You have it as a range of 24

Machine guns have a higher effective range on a tripod because the gun is fixed to the tripod at two points. In yoke or pintle (or bipod for that matter) configuration it is only mounted at one point and so becomes much less acccurate and so has a much lower effective range. This later category includes all the game TMGs and AAMGs, at the moment they have the same range as the same weapon on a tripod. So for rifle calibre MGs in this configuration range should change from 24 to about 12.
It is not so much the calibre that determines the range but they type of mounting. Tripod or pintle/yoke.

Infantry AA MGs on AA tripods could maybe have a slighty higher AA range or maybe accurracy as they usually have the correct sights for judging lead on aircraft which the tank AA MGs do not, but they are still pintle or yoke mounted.

The Rolls Royce Armoured Cars used in North Africa were fitted with a boys, a BREN and a 4.7" smoke mortar in a fixed, forward only firing turret.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
USA unit 023 Calliope has a bow MG and coxial MG, but yours doesnt. Maybe use one of the 3 Rocket slots so it can have at least one of these?
NO...mgs cannot be used by sp rocket units.....game limitation

also there will be no change to BMG/CMG/TMG in game ranges neither will selective TMG's be turned into BMG's

The first paragraph held info that interested me.. the rest not so much but if you actually run a test in the game you will discover that AAMG's generally fire at the range you think they should be firing at targets

As for "It seems no Japanese tank has a coaxial MG. several of yours do."....if it's mounted in the turret beside the main gun it's a CMG for game purposes if it does not and we have one there you have a point......otherwise you do not.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:10 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

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Originally Posted by DRG View Post
also there will be no change to BMG/CMG/TMG in game ranges neither will selective TMG's be turned into BMG's
I'm not insisting on anything, but it always puzzled me: why BMGs have such poor range comparing to TMGs?.. The tankettes are handicapped this way. Maybe they could get TMGs?...

As for weapons mounted in opposite sides of a turret, I understand, that this is a compromise. It's better to have Type 97 tank shooting the gun and then the turret MG in one turn, than to remove an ability of firing the turret MG at all... In case of tanks with a gun, CMG and rear MG in a turret, it won't be a problem to remove one of MGs. (BTW: in case of Soviet T-35 tanks, one of 45mm guns should be removed, because there was no physical possibility to fire both guns at one target - unless the tank turned in front of the target, and then turned again to fire both its 45mm guns...).

In case of mentioned Polish wz.29 armoured car, note, that the variant with an AAMG is available only until 1932. Here is the same situation, with two (or even possibly three) weapons in different turret sides, manned by one man. The car also had a rear MG in a hull, which is removed in the game, because it was only useful in peculiar situations.

As for AAMGs in general, I guess, that in reality not all tank commanders always decided to open the hatch and fire at each aircraft, instead of sitting under an armour... Moreover: I don't think, that AAMGs were often used for firing at ground targets after firing a gun and CMG, and before another gun and CMG shot... But I'm afraid there's no practical solution.
Just a few thoughts...
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

I'm not insisting on anything...
That's really good Michael as there is a cold and lonely place in Hell for people who think they have the right to do so.

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

.....but it always puzzled me: why BMGs have such poor range comparing to TMGs?.. The tankettes are handicapped this way. Maybe they could get TMGs?...
A point you make, it seems to me, at least once a year.....I assume you feel if you nag long enough you'll get what you want ?


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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
(BTW: in case of Soviet T-35 tanks, one of 45mm guns should be removed, because there was no physical possibility to fire both guns at one target - unless the tank turned in front of the target, and then turned again to fire both its 45mm guns...).
As I recall going back nearly 20 years it was determined that in some cases it was possible to aim and fire both 45mm guns at a single target so both guns are included.YOU are the first one to make that an issue in 2 decades and it's staying as it is now. If you don't like it I suggest you and Kiwkki get together and create your own OOB's as it has become counter productive to advancing and improving THE GAME when I spend most of my time dealing with OOB minutiae that has little impact. The ranges for BMG's CMG's and TMGs were agreed on and set nearly 2 DECADES ago and now there are over 500 TMG/CMG/BMG's entered in the ww2 OOB alone ( 1008 in MBT ) and I see 2 people with issues with how we have them set up and neither of those two people are Andy and I



The illustration was not created to be definitive just to show that it could be done and when they were entered that was deemed a good enough reason to include both.

It does seem we have to remind some people that this is a game simulation and as such has limitations.... rear firing MG's are one of them and multiple turrets are another so their use is abstracted and if that's a problem......play something else. What we have now as deemed a fair compromise at the time but there will always be someone who thinks anything should be done the way they think it should be done but in this case this mod is mine and Andy's and we are happy with the status quo
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Old September 13th, 2017, 06:09 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

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Originally Posted by DRG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

.....but it always puzzled me: why BMGs have such poor range comparing to TMGs?.. The tankettes are handicapped this way. Maybe they could get TMGs?...
A point you make, it seems to me, at least once a year.....I assume you feel if you nag long enough you'll get what you want ?
Probably it's because I never got the answer, if there's a reason, or it's just a tradition coming from some obscure reasons... So I assumed you just haven't noticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
As I recall going back nearly 20 years it was determined that in some cases it was possible to aim and fire both 45mm guns at a single target so both guns are included. (...)

The illustration was not created to be definitive just to show that it could be done and when they were entered that was deemed a good enough reason to include both.
I've made more detailed picture and it seems, that it was possible - for targets situated around 48 degrees from center line in right rear corner, and 48 degrees in left front corner Turrets in a picture are turned at 48 degrees - and their lines of fire are perpendicular, with not much possibility to bend them more (maybe with MG turrets turned there will be a few degrees more). So we'd have to kindly ask an enemy to stay in one of these two places
But as you wish, if you believe it's realistically feasible in combat situation, I won't argue...
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Old September 13th, 2017, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

Since you proved the point that in certain cases it IS possible to target both guns there is little to discuss except had we set the unit up as you suggested I have NO DOUBT someone else would have complained and pointed out what you just proved........ that this is a viable shot.


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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

Piwbl, just about BMGs... not sure if you ever sat in one of those. You have very poor vision and X/Y axis mobility. You are limited to ironsights rather than main gun aiming devices.
In short: you give up your effective firing range for protected gunner. Makes sense to me.


And now - since a wishlist is open - allow infantry units equipped with underbarrel grenade launchers to fire smoke at longer distance like assault guns
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Old September 13th, 2017, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

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And now - since a wishlist is open - allow infantry units equipped with underbarrel grenade launchers to fire smoke at longer distance like assault guns

Well the wishlist already includes 60 items so " open " isn't quite the right word......more like " overloaded " .... That said, I will tack this onto the end of the list.......but don't hold your breath for this.......a GL as modeled by the code is not handled the same as say.......a 50 or 60 mm mortar which can have separate smoke rounds. There is nothing to tack a designated smoke round to
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Old September 14th, 2017, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Tank machine guns

Nor are UGL weapon slot 1 weapons, and the code only uses the slot 1 weapon range, and type for determining whether it gives out smoke ammo, and sometimes class, where its limited to infantry classes and range 1 as a hand smoke grenade. The latter removed the old SP ability for infantry to pop smoke at will out to Slot 1 rifle range - so players could choke the map in smoke with grunt fire therefore we specifically reduced that to a 1 range as players were tired of the SSI infantry's "pyrotechnics".

Enough about that - we may look into it, if there is time.

But its off topic for a thread on tank MG.

cheers
Andy
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Old September 15th, 2017, 01:51 AM

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Default Re: Tank machine guns

GL smoke is for target marking or signaling. It does not make a suitable screen volume of smoke.
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