Can someone tell me about Machaka?

[Amorphous]

Black Hunters cost 80 and Spider Riders 30 in the latest CBM.
In vanilla, it is 125 and 50 respectively.

At least with a minor nature bless, 4 Black Hunters do better than 10 Spider Riders. From what I can remember, 3 was a bit too close. The chance of losing one is much greater than with 4 and going with just 2 does not really work, so you need to reinforce before you can continue.

[Jarkko]

Right, Black Spiders are now 80 gold a piece. However, 36 resources makes it difficult to recruit more than a couple in the early turns.

[Amorphous]

You do not need more than a couple.

The first expansion party is reasonably made up of ordinary spiders, but as soon as you have taken an adjacent province or two, it is not hard to come up with the resources. I usually play Machaka with sloth 3 and manage it just fine.

[BigDaddy]

I just played Machaka in 2 player. I took production scales. I devoured the map. I don't think that there is another race that I have played that can make indy taking forces so quickly. I'm sure I could have fielded 5/turn if it was MP with indy commanders draining into my capital.

My setup might have been crappy in MP, however, because I chose a Lich to with just death magic and was racing to well of misery + tartarian gate. He never evem got out of prison before the hunter lord, 7 black hunters, and 53ish spider riders broke his main force. I was spreading across the ocean with the crazy cash and never -needed- a second castle.

The magic path was a gamble, because I could have gone with construction and then to flaming arrows. But, after the third turn, I could tell that even if he could field a force of mages with which to kill significant numbers of spiders, I strongly doubted he could hold many of his provinces while doing it. He did have some evo, but when I took a first castle I paused and gathered for 3 or 4 turns and had way too many spiders even for his paladin spearhead.

If I were him, I would have probably avoided that direct confrontation. But its hard in 2 player; I didn't have anything to do more important than concentrate on kicking his ***.

Or maybe I could have taken sever opponents of guard and conquered the world with their gems... especially if I could take out Ermor... how sweet thy gem site ermor...

I don't think we made it to turn 30.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by vfb

I'm pretty sure mindless units dissolve on turn 50 whether they are berserk or not.

I don't like to hire the sorceresses because the (also) cap-only sorcerers are so much better.

Vfb:

I am very sure that I have gone 75 with a berserk mindless. I may be wrong. But I'm sure =).

Secondly, I've seen a few instances where mindless units can route. For example, set one up with quickness, and boots of flying. If they get to the edge of the board on their first action I believe they will route ok.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

I just played Machaka in 2 player. I took production scales. I devoured the map. I don't think that there is another race that I have played that can make indy taking forces so quickly. I'm sure I could have fielded 5/turn if it was MP with indy commanders draining into my capital.

My setup might have been crappy in MP, however, because I chose a Lich to with just death magic and was racing to well of misery + tartarian gate. He never evem got out of prison before the hunter lord, 7 black hunters, and 53ish spider riders broke his main force. I was spreading across the ocean with the crazy cash and never -needed- a second castle.

The magic path was a gamble, because I could have gone with construction and then to flaming arrows. But, after the third turn, I could tell that even if he could field a force of mages with which to kill significant numbers of spiders, I strongly doubted he could hold many of his provinces while doing it. He did have some evo, but when I took a first castle I paused and gathered for 3 or 4 turns and had way too many spiders even for his paladin spearhead.

If I were him, I would have probably avoided that direct confrontation. But its hard in 2 player; I didn't have anything to do more important than concentrate on kicking his ***.

Or maybe I could have taken sever opponents of guard and conquered the world with their gems... especially if I could take out Ermor... how sweet thy gem site ermor...

I don't think we made it to turn 30.

Yah; two player is very different than mp. As you say you don't have to worry about flanks, multiple armies. He who destroys the other's main army first usually wins.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.


As for the resource intensive: I was thinking spiders and too lazy to fix the error.

As for sorceresses: Not with the specific scales I specified. Magic 3 = +2 rp.

I like earth - an minor earth bless works great, and I like it with the fetish (or other gods). I was just suggesting an alternate to the fetish.

[BigDaddy]

The hunters are awesome, and the knights are nice, but, really, the riders are all you need, plus the archer dies faster than the armored dude you get otherwise, and that takes the upkeep away faster, which leads to more spiders faster.

I just get this vision of spiders just flowing off the sacred mountaintop... ha, scales...

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.

First, I want to make two things clear, so that we understand each other.

1. I have tried it. I would not be making the claims I do, if I had not.

2. I assume that the game parameters are normal, e.g. indy strength is 5.


That said, I certainly cannot get N9 to work as well as you advertise. An expansion party of 2 spiders does not work very well at all. Even keeping to what seems to be easier indies, you will lose a spider more often than not. Essentially, such parties can capture one province. 4 N4 spiders perform a lot better. 4 spiders without any bless also perform better than the 2 N9 spiders as long as you keep to easier indies.

3 N9 spiders can take pretty much the same provinces as 4 N4. Thanks to the berserk the N9 spiders will take some provinces that the N4 ones would lose, but these are the same provinces where you lose a spider. I also have a slightly higher attrition rate among the N9 spiders, but it is slight enough that I am willing to write it off as natural variance. The N9 party performs a bit better than the N4 party.

4 N9 spiders can, with very few exceptions, take the same provinces as 6 N4, but with a significantly higher attrition rate, so the latter group clearly performs better.

8 Black Hunters without any bless whatsoever perform better across the board than 4 N9 do.


You will definitely lose spiders - even with N9 - if you keep sending them out in groups of 2-4. Same goes if you just send out groups of 4. If you want to go without losses (apart from really bad luck, of course), you are going to have to send out groups of 5-6. If you go with N4 you need 7-8.

If you have some special trick that allows you better performance than this, I can try it out, but the above is what I can manage consistently.

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

[KissBlade]

Are we talking about CBM or non?