Battle lengths: MBT versus real life

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

These guys did run some command post exercise type games back in the 80s from what I recall reading in "Battle" magazine etc:
http://www.wargamedevelopments.org/index.htm Should be something about it in the back copies of their "Nugget" magazine?.

Interesting magazine, I think I'll download a few.

The military does that sort of thing on a regular basis - just use the command post radio vehicles without the need for everybody else to go out and about. Tests HQ procedures without expending fuel, digging up Farmer Giles fields etc.

Spot on. With a few buddies I could run a command post ex myself. MBT just has better graphics.

Well,essentialy it's your plum to pick what kind of engagment you prefer.
Say you want a large battle with mostly infantry then you should use more turns,on the heavy armour side with all the CM and MRLs maybe shorter.
Use the pref. to dail up or down abilities.
Scatter the Vh's or group them,place them set and the values on objectives to suit.
Air or no air,the posibilites go on.
There is no problem on deciding turns when playing the AI because it's all up to you.
This what makes this a fine wargame, the multiple endless ways you can set it up.
Pbem play is a diffrent matter of course.

It really is a comprehensive tactical wargame with easy scenario and OOB design, surprised the US Army never bought a few copies.

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The military does that sort of thing on a regular basis - just use the command post radio vehicles without the need for everybody else to go out and about. Tests HQ procedures without expending fuel, digging up Farmer Giles fields etc.

Yeah, we call them TAAS, which a Greek acronym for Tactical Excersise Without Troops.

Regarding the topic, the best solution is to use your imagination. I find that game fascinating even though it's older than the first time I've used a computer because I'm generally a person with imagination and you can make in your mind how the situation really developed. You can imagine that the time simulated in turns is the "active" type, that means it doesnt include the time your grunts are sitting in the foxhole thinking about boobs to escape the grim reality their living...

[Imp]

Modern MBT battles play a lot quicker than say a WWII game due to the greater accuracy & lethality of the weapons, unsupported infantry vs infantry battles can still drag on like they should.

Where it differs from real life is recon & command & control. You dont spend several hours trying to gather info & getting in place before an attack & nobody gets lost on the way,
You also instantly react to the info on the battlefield so can move to intercept immediatly instead of wasting time carrying out your original orders only to be told to head back to where you were

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Imp

Modern MBT battles play a lot quicker than say a WWII game due to the greater accuracy & lethality of the weapons, unsupported infantry vs infantry battles can still drag on like they should.

Where it differs from real life is recon & command & control. You dont spend several hours trying to gather info & getting in place before an attack & nobody gets lost on the way,
You also instantly react to the info on the battlefield so can move to intercept immediatly instead of wasting time carrying out your original orders only to be told to head back to where you were

Like with Mobhack's post that's exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. At first I thought that MBT might vastly overestimate the accuracy and lethality of infantry weapons. But from this thread I get the impression that US infantry squads really do have a 50% chance of hit per volley against Al Qaedas in open terrain and the scenarios just play fast because there isn't any command and control dead time.

[Imp]

Thats why modern armies are trying to turn the battlefield into a wargame with drones & cameras on parachutes launched by infantry to aid recon & "Battle Nets" passing info instantly to allow instant response.
If reports are to be believed Merkava's can plot the point of origin of incoming fire in nanoseconds & send the info to the other tanks in its company a moment later. A computer decides which tanks are best positioned to engage that are not engaged already & starts swinging the turret on target.
You want to be a hero?

[Miketee10022]

An excellent thread! Here is one way to skin the 99 turn cat...

Create a second scenario that is based on the last turn of the first. It is a little laborious - you have to make a notation of where your units are, and the enemy units. You may need the scenario editor to inflict losses on various units, and adjust morale (if a unit is routing, etc.), and ammo available, etc. Not a perfect solution, but at least it's something. If you don't want to know everything about the disposition of the enemy forces, just note your own forces, and send the saved turn to a friend so he can complete the scenario inputting the enemy data. Again...labor intensive. But it is one imperfect way to go in terms of lengthening a battle beyond 99 turns, so to speak.

For me? I am VERY comfortable with the 99 turn limit, as most of my games don't really go much past 30 turns. And I really like the God-like, all-seeing helicopter-eye-view (and corresponding immediate access to data) that SP MBT offers!

[troopie]

Modern combat goes in fits and starts. It is entirely possible to spend an entire battle doing nothing, because there is no action in your area and command doesn't dare move you.

ALL armies are subject to hurry up and wait. I remember being ordered to board lorries (This was back in the mid 70's,) ordered to debus and go back into formations, ordered to board lorries again, sitting and waiting in the lorries out of my mind with desire for a smoke, then being ordered to debus again and go back to quarters. All this took some hours.

It is entirely possible to march all day, patrol all day all night and while fighting is going on elsewhere and never catch spoor of the enemy.

troopie

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by troopie

Modern combat goes in fits and starts. It is entirely possible to spend an entire battle doing nothing, because there is no action in your area and command doesn't dare move you.

ALL armies are subject to hurry up and wait. I remember being ordered to board lorries (This was back in the mid 70's,) ordered to debus and go back into formations, ordered to board lorries again, sitting and waiting in the lorries out of my mind with desire for a smoke, then being ordered to debus again and go back to quarters. All this took some hours.

It is entirely possible to march all day, patrol all day all night and while fighting is going on elsewhere and never catch spoor of the enemy.

troopie

You'd probably have to fundamentally change the game mechanics to simulate that. WinSPMBT is like a highly coordinated specops operation on company/battalion scale.

SPIII sort of attempted to simulate this by implementing an "orders" mechanism where a given unit can only perform so many different actions in a turn.

[Imp]

It all becomes a case of do you want a quickfire game or a more realistic one where you only have partial control.
Example & cant remember which hill this battle was over but USA (I think) making an infantry night attack on a major hill during WWII.

There were 3 hills & units were supposed to advance using gullies streams & the edges of woods as landmarks to aid navigation as well as help hide them from the German sentries.

One unit was supposed to make a diversionary raid on one of the secondary hills hopefully drawing off defenders. The main force would then launch an attack on the main hill.

The diversionary attack never happened so after waiting as long as they dared past the time it was suppossed to start the main force launched its attack without it.
They were having a tough time of it when the diversionery force suddenly appeared from behind the Germans basically encircling them & turned the tide.

The diversionary force had got lost & ended up aiming for & attacking the wrong hill several hours behind schedule. However they had complete surprise as they had got so lost they avoided all the German sentries!!!

Turns out they couldnt have planned it much better if the diversionary force had arrived 10-15mins earlier would have been a near perfect assault.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Imp

Turns out they couldnt have planned it much better if the diversionary force had arrived 10-15mins earlier would have been a near perfect assault.

Good example. Coordination would probably be especially hard at night and with poor radios. Unless you were just doing a frontal charge.