.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

winSPWW2- Save $6.00
World Supremacy- Save $8.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT > TO&Es
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #811  
Old December 1st, 2018, 11:15 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

Don,
For your own good PLEASE before you get to the neat word in bold, get up and go shoot your gun or get your favorite beverage before you go past STOP here!!!


Well here we go again with the NOW and new #1 PITA OOB. Yes TURKEY has with this ref. below, officially surpassed INDIA for that coveted title!! : !!!!

It's bad enough that TURKEY can't manage to get the ALTAY developed near or on time and with the loss of German and Austrian support, it will have to a limited level restart the OPEVAL process as I've already discussed a few posts back.

So here's the "brilliant" plan instead they're going to have three different versions the ALTAY T1, ALTAY T2 (Detect a pattern here!?!) and finally the ALTAY T3 (For now!?!).

But maybe, and it kills me to say this, it might just be a little "brilliant" because it'll allow them more time to develop systems that they're currently having issues with and that might also still be in development. The continued development of the T-72 comes to mind some what.

It appears the big jump in technology will come in the ALTAY T2, which means we'll have to pay attention a little more closely to this process.

For myself and Don I see down the road more of this... : and since this is a family orientated forum, other things I just can't go into here!?!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/nove...ed_turret.html

Don really likes those "ANEMIA" things above or whatever the Hell you call them things!?!?!

After this post it looks like a good time to watch Monty Pythons "Meaning of Life" to get a little perspective!!!! There's one of those things again!!!!

It's a wonderful world, isn't it!?! Where are those things coming from!?! Again stop it now!! Obviously somebody got some sleep just wait until I get a hold of him it'll be the
squad for him!!


Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FASTBOAT TOUGH For This Useful Post:
  #812  
Old December 7th, 2018, 04:46 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

Just a little something to "chew upon" while I'm at work until the "wee hours" of tomorrow morning. Some news on IDF MERKEVA "WINDBREAKER" and most surprisingly to me, was the selection made by for the UKRAINE the T-72K over the OPLOT-M. They're taunting the fact it has the NOZH ("KNIFE") ERA pkg. which was developed for the OPLOT-M.

Given the choice between the two and w/o hesitation, I'd choose the OPLOT-M "All Day Long" and well into tomorrow!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...the_world.html


Gotta Run!! Have a great weekend!!


Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Reply With Quote
  #813  
Old Yesterday, 02:59 AM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

Alright I need a favor from at least 3 to 5 "research testers" and what I'm asking for will require 11, 13 or 15 tanks per side you choose, though a mix would be great. They are the Russian T-72B3/B4 versus the Ukrainian OPLOT-M. You my choose the terrain type or simply just have them fight it out on the flat. The Russian AI will buy those tanks every time and normally in the first battle.

Also this is something above my technical abilities and most importantly my hours at work since July have finally caught up to me () and I desperately need sleep before I go back to work Tue.

Why? Though I've had my share of tank losses against the AI, it seems like I'm losing a higher amount of OPLOT-M tanks against the above opponent versus other types used by different countries I've played. Note again my campaigns are long involving 15 to at odd intervals to 29(+/=) battles.

Results? What I expect to see is roughly a 2:1 or possibly as high as 3:1 advantage in kills by the T-72B3/B4.

What they say. I'm not implying the OPLOT-M is some kind of "super tank", however, it's been very consistently ranked in the "Top 10" lists of several sources dealing with tanks. It's nearest competitor in the region for comparison sake is the current updated T-90A (I'm not talking about the T-90AM.)
I'm posting a ref. below, but basically the OPLOT-M has a slightly better FCS/Vision+ and a better ERA package with NOZH-2.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...817?page=0%2C1

What I suspect? I'm guessing here, but it could be the ammo. Some of it was pretty old and or dated. But after "somebody" blew up three ammo dumps in the Ukraine in 2017, they have been apparently been importing (Some suggest as early as 2016 from the Czech Republic or Bulgaria. SIPRI does not track ammunition.).) heavier ammo. They lost their factory to the Russians when they took over the Crimea. A new modern facility is to open up and start production by late Spring or early Summer 2019.
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/6987/Uk...-of-ammunition
https://censor.net.ua/en/news/371078..._ukroboronprom


Please feel free to post your results here. And only up to the first five respondents please. Your interpretation of the results would be most welcomed as well.

Well that's been enough "head bobbing", so good night/morning and enjoy the rest of your weekend.!!

And thank you in advance!!


Andy and Don PLEASE sit this one out! I would like to think, that you'll "keep your noses to the grindstone" so you both can enjoy the holidays this year!! And if you both don't mind, what you guys have gotten me over the years has been fine for Christmas, however, if you can manage it this year, give me the same for Christmas but, just larger PLEASE!!


Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; Yesterday at 03:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #814  
Old Yesterday, 09:10 AM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,892
Thanks: 65
Thanked 370 Times in 298 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: MBT's

Hi Pat

Game stats
Both use identical main gun and ammo
Oplot missile has worse penetration cannot bother T-72 from the front
T-72 missile has a very small chance against the Oplot hull can ignore.
Missile defence is identical.

Oplot has slightly better fire control and vision.
Range finder stabilizer identical.
Standard settings Russia has better Experience so Oplot will be less accurate overall.

Oplot has better turret front by enough at correct range will make a difference against AP and superb HEAT protection, no ATGM will penetrate turret front.
Oplot hull is marginally weaker vs AP, not going to be a problem in most cases only a small range where its more vulnerable. could run AP calc if wanted to find the range.

Oplot ERA package is worse 5/5 vs 8/6
Therefore Oplot is likely to stop none or 1 round maybe 2. T-72 has a good chance of stopping the first round and may stop several.

Oplot strengths weakness vs T-72
From the front if hull down its virtually invincible, Top attack ATGMs (not T-72s)are the only threat.
Oplot can penetrate T-72 turret at about double the range T-72 can penetrate its turret. Be around 1000 + 2000m respectively. Closer for a certainty say 700 + 1700m run AP calc if you want the exact figures.
It cannot take advantage of extra vision range unless that presents a side shot as it wont penetrate and experience difference will make it less accurate at that range, still good hit chance though.
Fighting at 1000 > 1700m gives it the edge as it can kill with hull and turret hits while T-72 needs a hull hit.
T-72 has a good chance of absorbing 1 or 2 shots with its ERA while the Oplot only has a 50-50 chance of stopping a shot.

My normal buy order is infantry, APCs if separate, tanks, ATGMs could move ATGMs up one place if want I buy them there due to limited shots.
This way tanks only op fire if threat is still active limiting distraction, also causes suppression to the target aiding tank survivability
Also if APC has a cannon infantry and APC can trigger the ERA reducing the chance of the tanks shot being negated.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Imp For This Useful Post:
  #815  
Old Yesterday, 01:55 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Default Re: MBT's

John,
As always thank you! And I still see you haven't lost your touch for the details.

Well three things come to my attention immediately...

1) In a sense my thought concerning the ammo was directed if you will, at the wrong ammo, that being said, I think you have something there about the ATGM. And I believe this might be a true assessment.

2) I have to admit that I never gave much thought to "experience" from the onset of the game of those tanks. This would explain some of my earlier in game losses. These losses would be progressive throughout the game only getting marginally better as the campaign progresses due to the loss of the crews from the start. You're starting over every time with a new tank and crew.

That I should've seen, but didn't. And that's coming from the guy who's constantly bringing it up when newer players are seeking help etc. John thank you for reminding me!

3) Now after one test I believe we've found the leading "culprit" the ERA. So going back to the ref. I provided concerning the comparison between the T-90A (Russia "default" UNIT 860) and the OPLOT-M (UKRAINE "default" UNIT O64) that article pointed out that the ERA was in favor of the OPLOT-M.

So is it possible to at least increase the ERA of the OPLOT-M to achieve parody with the T-90A as in the game now? Or to give it the edge the article suggests? Some more perspective...
http://news.kievukraine.info/2018/06...on-worlds.html

I think it a fair one given where it's coming from and I'm seeing anything that "The National Review" ref from my last post didn't point out. Of note though from the above is the main gun comparison to it's Russian counterpart and the results of Malaysian tests between the base T-84 versus the T-90S which that the T-84 was at near parody with the T-90S.

John thank you!

Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FASTBOAT TOUGH For This Useful Post:
  #816  
Old Yesterday, 04:57 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

I should have ended (And had planned to but got called away.) "Item 2) from my last Post" with the following only because like I missed the "experience" issue, it should have ended with...

"This situation would now call for a tactical change in how I use the OPLOT-M against any opponent due to the base "experience level" of the crew. It's too easy to get caught up in how good the MBT is and as John brought up, and forget about how good the crew is that's operating the tank at the time.

Options include better terrain masking, ambush, maneuver to better achieve a disabling or kill shot, concentrated fire by more than one OPLOT-M to the nearest threat tank to at least reduce it's morale at mid to max. range or worse.

Reality would suggest however a combination of part or all of the above would be needed and maybe more."


Certainly we can all learn more and also remind ourselves about what we might have forgotten or to be kinder, overlooked, because some of us are "experienced players".

I have light bulbs to change out in the bathroom, CINCLANTHOME can make my Sundays so hard for me!?!

Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Reply With Quote
  #817  
Old Yesterday, 05:46 PM
Aeraaa's Avatar

Aeraaa Aeraaa is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 401
Thanks: 84
Thanked 196 Times in 127 Posts
Aeraaa is on a distinguished road
Default Re: MBT's

@FASTBOAT: are you asking for a 10 to 15 encounter battle between the T-72B3/B4 and the T-84? I can do this, but I'll post the results next weekend, as I'm a little busy this week.
Reply With Quote
  #818  
Old Yesterday, 07:02 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

Aeraaa,
First thanks for volunteering! I like "tie breakers" which is how I set my campaigns as I mentioned earlier so...

1) For each side 11, 13 or 15 tanks each.

2) Just 1 battle would suffice I believe, but if you have the time 3 might be better to "flush out" any game anomalies.

3) The "kill ratio" would be good info as well in general and for me to be able to verify my own data collection is what I suspect it is.

But I leave that to the tester, it however, would be useful to know how many battles were used to collect the data for trend analysis purposes.

Thanks Again!

Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Reply With Quote
  #819  
Old Yesterday, 08:08 PM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,892
Thanks: 65
Thanked 370 Times in 298 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: MBT's

Pat terrain will make a big difference as mentioned if Oplot is hull down for instance. Also Oplot has a pretty good ammo loadout and accuracy so if it gets a chance it could fire at range. No chance of destroying but will hopefully trigger ERA.
If terrain allows one group can strip ERA safely at ranges over 2500m and possibly draw fire then other group pops out at closer range to kill.
AP Artillery is also effective at striping ERA although its pot luck what facing it hits.

You need to be warry of getting into a tank duel with any vehicle with ERA 7+ as it will probably survive the first shot. Its a bit like playing WWII where they quite often survive the first hit except the return fire is a lot more accurate.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Imp For This Useful Post:
  #820  
Old Yesterday, 10:18 PM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,793
Thanks: 316
Thanked 673 Times in 504 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: MBT's

John,
I agree hull down tanks have that advantage. Very rarely do I do that even against an assault...1) I can't always entrench my units. 2) I prefer to find fairly defensible terrain with decent fields of fire with over watch units where possible, I like my units to have "an out" and maneuver them to set up for the next shot or two.

As to the artillery issue, I've used my artillery (155mm HE or similar) as you've suggested in that manner for a longtime now. And your right it does work.

I know it works because I've seen it happen to me many, many times against me when the AI will pound the crap out of a critically important position or other, and if you will, to the both of us. This might be helpful in regards to an idea Don mentioned in passing, which to be honest, I don't think is necessary at this point.

These are both observed in the game turn and checked against my UNIT stats again using conventional artillery only:
1. Tanks destroyed - Rare
2. Tanks Disabled - Less Often
3. Tanks lose MG capability - Less Often
4. Tanks lose Secondary weapons - Often
5. Tanks lose TI-GSR/Sensors/Comms - Often/Often/Rare
6. Tanks Morale effected- Always
, however your more experienced units might hold the line here but if the support troops have been hammered, you might have no choice but to withdraw and regroup. By having to do that means, the enemy has achieved a certain level of success to some degree. They will be suppressed, retreating or routed it just may take a little longer then other UNITS.

It might take one good salvo from many arty units or several from a couple of arty units. I can't tell you how many times I've had to pull a tank(s) back off the line because all they are is a "mobile pillbox".

I think the arty is fine in game, if my units could leave you feedback, I think they would agree.

Now somehow giving the AI supply capability would be great, but, that to my mind would be the much harder thing to do I think.

All I've played is against the AI for the last 15yrs. or so maybe longer and always long campaigns as I've described, how many battles has that been!?! I observe, it's what I do. It comes in handy here, when I served and especially now in my work, we just call it "Situational Awareness" and we harp on it constantly.

For what they are worth, those are my personal observations.

Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; Yesterday at 10:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2018, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.