"Primitive" tech tree

[Phoenix-D]

Would anyone actually like to see this? There was a discussion on this a while back, and I've decided to take it on as my first major mod project.

This would be a racial area similar to the "Pirates and Nomads" mod- the "normal" tech would be moved to a seperate racial area.

If it's OK with the creator of that mod, I'll use the info from his mod for the normal races, so races that don't use the respective special areas would be compatable with either (i.e. the standard SE4 races)

Anyway, I was thinking of having a few different "levels" of primitives:

1. Low Tech primitive. Starts out with basic farming, ends with modern type tech- the best space veicle would be a pathetic fighter (meant to simulate the space shuttle, etc, which wouldn't handle warp points)

2. Medium tech primitive. Starts around 19th century tech, ends with basic (slow) starships and weak ship-to-ship weaponry.

3. High tech primitive. Starts around modern tech, ends where the SE4 tech *starts*.

4. Semi-primitive. Starts around modern time, ends around the middle of the SE4 tech trees.

Comments, suggestions? I can't do new graphics, and I haven't touched the AI files, so I would need help there. I think this would be a nice setting for new neutral races, and the higher levels would be a good "handicap" in PBEM where one player is much better than another (might be fun, if *hard*, in single, too)

Phoenix-D

[henk brouwer]

I have done some work on this some time back, I can post the work so far, it was more easy to do then expected.

I have only made changes to the AI files for the races used themselves, and it should therefore be completely compatible with other mods.

I have:

Primitive race files: I kind of deleted all entries for research and shipbuilding in the AI files for this race so it just sits there and builds and does absolutely nothing, wich is exactly what a good primitive should do.

Besides that I have working files for a semi-primitive race wich can be told to be activated after a certain amount of turns in the game, say 80 turns or 120 turns, before that they will act as a primitive, after that as any other normal space travelling race.

I still have some problems, the game keeps filling the primitives homeworld with research stations etc. at the start of the game ( even if there are no entries in the facilityconstruction file) they still start with a full homeworld, they also use these facilities to do random research projects. It's no big problem though, I made something up in the races description that explains it. "the facilities were left behind by a ancient civilisation that studied the primitives"

All this was tested under 1.19 or even before, so I have to test it again under the current Version.

I will finish the special speech file for the primitives and try to make some racepictures, and post everything this weekend. I couldn't stand the primitives using the default speech file, in the new file they'll act stupid, and refer to you as God, and do other things primitives do.

[This message has been edited by henk brouwer (edited 04 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by henk brouwer (edited 04 May 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

AFAIK the homeworlds shouldn't start with research facs if the race has no research facilities that it can build.

Yeah, primitives would be cool... especially if each primitive had a special tech that could lead to tech you could use. Do the following, first create the actual "useful" tech tree, make it's racial tech area that of the normal advanced societies so that the primitives can't reseach it, and a level 1 tech that they start with. Now this starting tech must have the "racial trait" tag set to 0, but it should require a tech that has the primitives racial tech number (and the race should start with this tech). It would look something like this in techarea.txt (assume area 8 is primitives, and 7 is "normal"):

Name := Farming
Group := Applied Science
Description := Primitive Farms.
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 5000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 8
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

Name := Symbiotic Plants
Group := Applied Science
Description := The use of native symbiotic wildlife.
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Farming
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Symbiotic Gesalt Web
Group := Applied Science
Description := These symbiotic planets form a neural-net between all infected hosts, by merging the entire population, a gesalt is created, greatly improving science and happiness.
Maximum Level := 3
Level Cost := 100000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 7
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Symbiotic Plants
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Thus if you trade/conqueor you'll get the "Symbiotic Plants" tech, thus allowing you to research the "Symbiotic Gesalt Web". However, I'm not sure if you'll get this tech in a "full tech" game.

As far as diffrent levels of primitives, I think you only need 2... pre-industrial (B.C. to 1800's), and post-industrial (1900's to 2000's). Adding more just really adds work without any real benifits IMHO.



[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 04 May 2001).]

[dogscoff]

Phoenix-D - Go for it, I would love to see this implemented. Although personally I wouldn't even bother with different levels / post industrial species- We already have neutrals.

Using the racial area (Like P&N does) would probably solve the starting facilities problem - if not maybe you could create "dummy" facilities that the AI recognises as research centres, space yards etc but which don't act like regular spaceyards / research centres.

Also, I'm starting to think that "Pre-industrial" would be a better word than "primitive". Just because a species hasn't developped global pollution and weapons of mass destruction doesn't necessarily mean they're "primiitve."

Don't know if I agree with giving primitives extra techs. Why not just use ruins planets? For me a massive boost in population and another atmosphere ability would be reason enough to conquer them a P-I species.
I would also enjoy getting them to surrender without a fight, then shipping their medieval troop units off to fight against 25th century technology. Heheheheh.

Also, P-Is are not just there for conquering: You might for some reason be unable to send a fleet to glass & recolonise / conquer their world, in which case you could trade with them for
a few resources and valuable resupply rights.

Fianlly, I thought of a better description for the pre-industrial resupply depot. Since it wouldn't be used unless the P-Is had a good treaty with a spacefaring empire, the description could read something like:
"Friendly spacefaring empires use local resources and labour to maintain a crude resupply facility."
This helps to explain how a pre-industrial society could supply an orbiting ship with ionised plasma and guided missiles. You could just leave it out but I think this facility is important because it gives you another reason to be friendly with P-Is rather than just glass them.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "


[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 04 May 2001).]

[dogscoff]

henk brouwer - sounds like good work. Here are some more ideas for some more P-I species. Do you (or anyone else) want to mod these for me? I'd never get round to it. I've talked about values for things like research and intel - even though Pre-Industrial species can't use these values, I'm hoping future Versions of SEIV will make use of these values once the species is "assimilated" into an empire. It also gives a better indication of what the species is like.

The Gobin - Rock, artisan.
Biological description: The gobin are small quadrupeds with prehensile tails, soft fur and endearing brown eyes. Although they can be savage in combat, their short legs and and poor resistance to adverse weather conditions are not well suited to the hunter / gatherer lifestyle they lead.

Society: Studies of Gobin biology and of their precise oral history suggests that they were genetically engineered as pets or companions for another race. For reasons which are not clear, their creators abandoned them to a harsh life of hunting and foraging. Ill- suited to this way of life, Gobin population is falling and extinction is a very real possibility. Gobin are very musical, and their social and political life centres around a form of competitive story- singing.

Other Empires: The Gobin are moderately intelligent and were created by a spacefaring society, so although they are unable to develop technology of their own they have a very realistic understanding of space travel. They were engineered to be companions and as such thrive in the company of other species - in fact the current Gobin government would be happy to surrender their race's independence to a developped species in order to escape the misery of their current situation.

Stats: happiness, intel, politics & reproduction high, environmntal resistance very very low, everything else average. Their politics file should show that they are willing to surrender to a friendly empire.


The Airb Clans - Gas planet, warrior.
Biological: The Airb are near- spherical bags of bouyant gas. They compensate for their lack of limbs with a telekinetic ability which they use to propel themselves through the atmosphere and manipulate objects. They have sharp teeth, powerful jaws and an extraordinarily versatile digestive system.
Society: Airb society is split into a series of small, highly territorial family Groups. There is no government which speaks for the entire species. Although Airb can digest just about anything, almost all the clans live exclusively by hunting the huge herds of Whale Zeps on their homeworld. A group of Airb will use their telekinetic abilities and sharp teeth to burrow into and kill the Zeps, which can grow to over a kilometre in length.
Politics / other species: The Airb are agressive and highly suspicious of strangers. They are also utterly fearless and will not hesitate to attack, even when faced with superior odds and technology. This makes negotiation with the Airb difficult and dangerous, however they may be receptive to diplomacy if they feel they can gain some advantage over rival clans.

The Airb should have high combat modifiers, but low values for just about everything else
except organics production. Their political behaviour should be unpredictable.


The Shon Kingdom.
Biological: The shon are plain looking humanoids, with well developped brains and hands. They stand at an average 1.5 metres tall, although better diet and medical technology would probably increase this significantly.
Society: When today's dominant space faring species were worshipping rocks and beating one another with sticks, the Shon were gliding around the galaxy in magnificent silver space craft. According to archeologists their achievements in the engineering, philosophy and exploration were unparalleled, and the development of a great many worlds and species owes much to the Shon's intervention. They ruled the galaxy benevolently for thousands of generations, until internal forces left their empire vulnerable to opportunist attackers. All that remains of their glorious history is a few scattered planets, each divided into squabbling medieval kingdoms.
Politics: Although the Shon have lost the details of their history and technologies, they know that they were once great and that they lived in the sky. A common belief among the Shon is that they are descended from a race of angels. As a result, Shon rulers tend to be arrogant, ambitious and decadent, and easily impressed by displays of technology. Technologically advanced aliens have abused this weakness in the past by posing as Gods.

Intel and research values should be high, all others slightly above average except for trade, which should be very low. Their behaviour should be arrogant and slightly pathetic. Perhaps they could have "ancient race" as well, which would give them something else to trade with.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 04 May 2001).]

[Phoenix-D]

I'll start on this soon, then. I'd use the ruins idea from the other thread ("population" ruins) but I don't think it will work..

I still need to know if the Pirates and Nomands author (for some reason I'm blanking when thinking of who it is) minds if I "borrow" his normal tech tree

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

---

I still need to know if the Pirates and Nomands author (for some reason I'm blanking when thinking of who it is) minds if I "borrow" his normal tech tree

---

Hello.

I wouldn't say I made the "normal" tech tree.

Technically, the "normal" techs in my mod are all MM's original techs, but require the "normal" racial trait.
It is simply a matter of adding a new tech requirement, so mineral miners require "mineral extraction level X" and "Normal level 1" at the same time

Feel free to use the method. You may run into some trouble if you try and blindly copy-paste large sections of the files, but good luck to you!


I would suggest letting everybody get the primitive technology. Just make it less desireable than normal tech.

Eg. Make a radioactives collider for the post-industrial guys, but have it decrease the value & conditions of the planet 1% per year, by leaving radioactive waste lying around.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 05 May 2001).]

[Phoenix-D]

The hard part about that would be this: I'd have to manually add it to the "primitive" racial area AND the normal one, creating a duplicate..

..and you still couldn't steal their tech (not that you'd want to).

Of course, if I only wanted *one* level of primitive, I suppose I could just make the primitive stuff the "normal" tech area (i.e. racial area 0)..

Raises a question. If you have racial tech, and someone else also has that tech, can you steal it? Or does it block like if the other person doesn't have the area?

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

The only thing you can't steal is:
-levels in any tech area that requires a racial trait to open
-levels in any tech area that requires an ancient tech to open.

So, If you have:
-tech A, which requires Organic manip,
-tech B which requires tech A lev. 5, and
-tech C which requires tech B lev 2.

If you do NOT have organic manip racial trait;
--------------------------------
You cannot steal anything from tech A.
You cannot research tech A
--------------------------------
You CAN steal level ups in tech B anytime
You cannot research tech B
--------------------------------
You CAN steal level ups in tech C anytime.
You CAN research tech C, but only if you have stolen tech B, level 2

If you DO have organic manip, then the techs act just like normal techs.

quote:

---

The hard part about that would be this: I'd have to manually add it to the "primitive" racial area AND the normal one, creating a duplicate..
..and you still couldn't steal their tech (not that you'd want to).

---

With the above, you should now see that you want to give the "Value-reducing radioactives collider" in a "tech B" type area.

So, the racial trait gives you level 1 in "Primitive tech"
"Primitive radioactives" requires "Primitive tech level 1", and so, is available immediately, can be stolen, but can't be researched.
"Value-reducing blah blahs" would require "primitive radioactives"
Normal radioactives extractors would require "radioactives extraction" PLUS "normal tech"

Since the primitive radioactives is a "Type B" tech, it can be stolen, giving the Normal Empire the value reducing extractor.

You could also add the tech requirement of radioactives extraction, so the primitives could make discoveries about how the radioactives interact with their environment.
This would allow the capturing Empire to gain radioactives extraction, and upgrade their existing, high tech facilities.

The primitives could know all about the structure & interactions of the resources, but not have the industry to use it fully.
The Empire would be capturing the Brick radioactives factory, find all kinds of info on the nature of radioactives & use that to improve operations at their TranspariSteel, floating rad facilies.

[Jourin]

The mod I designed for me has some primitive tech called Space Travel and Basic Propulsion.

Space Travel gets you a Space Plane with three engines 100KT. Basic Propulsion gets a Nuclear Engine that cost 5X ion and burns 2.5x fuel. Basic Propulsion 4, plus Physics 1 gets you Nuclear Fusion a little better engine. Basic Propulsion 6, plus Physics 2 gets you the standard Ion engine.

Since I am using Physics for propulsion I bumped all the other physic prerequites by 1, ie shields are now Physics 2.

Space Travel 2 gets you the colony ship and Space Travel 3 gets you the small transport plus a small armed merchant ship (ie a small transport modified) With construction 1, industry 1, and Space Travel 3 you can now research ship construction.

This slows down the rapid expansion and makes the homeworld system much more important. Of Course I had to modify all the AT Reaserch files and some of the ship construction files.