The Virtue

[GrudgeBringer]

I was reading the post on 'Know your Pretender'
and it talked about the Virtue.

I had never thought to even look at it until that thread.

I have a couple of questions to those that know that Pretender.

1. I was told by a very good player that you either go Heat/Cold 0 or you go (all the way 3). Now for the virtue 3 seems extreme and 1 DOES give some points.

So I made 2 builds (feel free to critique them please)

1. E4 S4 A4 Dom 10 O3 S3 H1 L1 M1 Asleep 15 points left over (seems you can't get away from those 15 points).

2. Asleep, E4 S4 A4 Dom 10 O3 S3 H3 L3 (I know but it just seems in this case natural) M1 !5 points left over.

IF you like these builds, WHICH do you like better.

If you would like to critique and perhaps offer some guidance, Please DO.

The Virtue looks like it could be a fun off pace Pretender so i am serious about asking.

Thanks!!!

[thejeff]

I'd hesitate to go with only S4.
I'd also wonder if D10 is necessary if you're not taking her awake. By the time she wakes up you'll have gear and buffs, she won't be relying only on the awe.

Otherwise it depends on the nation. S3 will be okay for some, but crippling in the first year (with no pretender) for others. I also probably wouldn't take earth on her unless my national mages didn't have access.

[Psycho]

You forgot to say which nation this is for.

[OmikronWarrior]

You probably should have asked this in the BKaP:V thread, if only to make it easier for prosperity to find. Anyway...

Evaluating a Pretender build without clarifying which nation its suppose to assist is difficult. An awake pretender is a little different, as the assumption is the Pretender will be battling indies with out support from troops or national mages. Furthermore, I rarely play CBM and dislike the changes they made to the Virtue. Sure, having 2 paths is definitely a boost, but it sort of forces builds to focus on Astral. Simply reducing the additional path cost to 50 from 80 would be a much better "fix," but thats neither he nor there.

Anyway, if she's sleeping, she's not fighting indies and hopefully when she awakes your nation will be in better shape to equip her or cast some buffs. So, I'd drop the Dom down to 7 or 8. Earth magic... its pretty potent, especially in combination with Air (best SC buffs in the game and Elemental Staff) and Astral (ton of valuable forging takes place with Astral and Earth). It's an expensive addition, but probably worth while depending on nation. It also improves protection making Dom10 even more unnecessary.

Astral is probably fine at S4 and opens the door to Ring forging, but certainly still vulnerable to Magic Duel and keeps Wish out of reach without empowering. Going S6 fixes both and adds a little extra MR for sacreds that might be handy depending on nation.

Sloth means your nation is going to have trouble expanding... depending on troop types. Really, this is going to be very nation dependent, but I typically think Production doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Now on to temp scales. I don't know who told you go neutral or go 3, but they were lying. Everyone loves order-3 and its 7% per tick income bonus. Yet, temp scales are a 5% per tick penalty. The difference between 5 and 7 is there, but not game changing. In general, I suggest players only pick non-neutral temp scales if the only other place to pick up points is Order. Obviously, the needs of any build is complex. And, some nations have preferred temperatures which players should absolutely take advantage of.

Luck/Misfortune is typically the cheapest place to pick up points. Yeah, it will help your endgame when combined with magic scales creating gem generating random events. But thats a luxury.

Magic once against depends on nation, but any nation planning on recruiting a lot of cheap, low path mages will want as much magic as possible (at least 1, which you have), and avoid drain like the plague. If you're playing a nation with very expensive mages with a lot of paths, then Drain become more of an option.

[Frozen Lama]

You can assume the nation is arco. its all GB plays

[Psycho]

Given these two choices, I'd certainly take number 1. In the second scenario you spend 120 design points to get +7% income and +7% chance of good events. It's too small a gain for all those points. Plus you get less supplies and more encumbrance on troops.

I'd go misfortune 2 and neutral temp and get more design points to spend on magic paths. Also I'd take death instead of earth. Mystics cover the earth-astral combo and you have no mages with death. And if you take death go D5 for the fear effect.

Something like:
Dom 10, O3 S3 Misf2 Magic1
A4S5D5

[Squirrelloid]

Talk about things that don't get enough respect - Luck is hugely underrated imho.

Luck provides extra income, gems, and occasionally better things (magic items, etc...).

Luck causes imprisoned pretenders to break out earlier. Possibly sleeping pretenders wake up earlier, but I haven't noticed a difference.

Luck increases the chances of a hero showing up.

Misfortune drastically increases the chances that you will suffer a game losing effect early (lab burns down early year 1, early plague, bandits in your capitol turn 2 or 3, etc...). Eventually misfortune becomes liveable, but its negative effects in year 1 can be truly awful.

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I'd argue you either take 1 tick or 3 ticks in temperature, and never 0 or 2.

H0 - half the time at H1 or C1 = 2.5% average income hit.
H1 - half the time at H2 or H0 = 5% average income hit.
H2 - half the time at H3 or H1 = 10% average income hit.
H3 - half the time at H2 = 12.5% average income hit.

Note that its only a 2.5% increased hit from H0 to H1, and from H2 to H3, while H1 to H2 is a full 5% income hit. 2.5% is less than the income hit from sloth or death scales per tick. Sold.

Now, if you have a preferred temperature scale it is *always* worthwhile to max out that scale, regardless of what that preference is. C+1 preference? C3 every time.

[GrudgeBringer]

Well, they said inthe other Forum that AECO was the best suited for Virtue and I play Arco alot and was thinking I would mess around in SP with it but needed a good start on Pretender design.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

H3 - half the time at H2 = 12.5% average income hit.

Note that its only a 2.5% increased hit from H0 to H1, and from H2 to H3, while H1 to H2 is a full 5% income hit. 2.5% is less than the income hit from sloth or death scales per tick. Sold.

Now, if you have a preferred temperature scale it is *always* worthwhile to max out that scale, regardless of what that preference is. C+1 preference? C3 every time.

C3/H3 affects combat too by adding +2 enc for any units which are not resistant to Cold/Heat. That can be a nice fringe benefit or a significant hindrance to your troops. E.g. Vanheim or Helheim go from enc 4 to enc 6 on their expensive sacreds, which could mean you need 20% or 30% more troops to kill the same amount of enemies in C3 dominion. Conversely, if you're fighting expensive, elite troops with a fairly weak attack and great Prot/Defense (Blindfighters, Lord Guardians, etc.) it may be quite advantageous to be in C3/H3 dominion even if your chaff suffers an enc penalty as well.

-Max

[OmikronWarrior]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Talk about things that don't get enough respect - Luck is hugely underrated imho.

Luck provides extra income, gems, and occasionally better things (magic items, etc...).

Luck causes imprisoned pretenders to break out earlier. Possibly sleeping pretenders wake up earlier, but I haven't noticed a difference.

Luck increases the chances of a hero showing up.

Misfortune drastically increases the chances that you will suffer a game losing effect early (lab burns down early year 1, early plague, bandits in your capitol turn 2 or 3, etc...). Eventually misfortune becomes liveable, but its negative effects in year 1 can be truly awful.

I agree with most of this in theory, but in practice I still insist that misfortune (up to 2) is the cheapest place to pick up additional pretender points, especially if growth (or at least not death) and Order is taken. Turmoil+Death+Misfortune looks ugly pretty fast.

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I'd argue you either take 1 tick or 3 ticks in temperature, and never 0 or 2.

H0 - half the time at H1 or C1 = 2.5% average income hit.
H1 - half the time at H2 or H0 = 5% average income hit.
H2 - half the time at H3 or H1 = 10% average income hit.
H3 - half the time at H2 = 12.5% average income hit.

This is completely wrong from my play experience. The math works out fine, but I don't think for a second seasonal shifts in the temp scale come close to being in effect "half the time." If you're like me, you probably have a dozen SP games floating around. Check any of them (which have reasonably sized empires with a good Dom spread). How many provinces deviate from the base temp scales? Not many, and those that do are most likely to be on the fringes or only recently fell under your dominion.

Though the mechanics of seasonal temp shifts are unknown to me, I believe they work like this. During certain seasons (summer and winter, obviously, but maybe fall and spring), provinces have a CHANCE to change temps in a certain direction. This chance is not certain, and I don't think even independent provinces under no dom will change temps with any regularity. Now, even those that do change, are now subject to shifts based on your dominion, the same shifts that change Order, luck, and magic. That drastically cuts down the effect of season on temperature. Meaning "half the time" is more like 1/6 the time.

Note that its only a 2.5% increased hit from H0 to H1, and from H2 to H3, while H1 to H2 is a full 5% income hit. 2.5% is less than the income hit from sloth or death scales per tick. Sold.

Double check that again. Death and Sloth give you a 2% deduction outright, though pop loss might make temp losses more attractive in the long run, I don't think thats where you're going.

Now, if you have a preferred temperature scale it is *always* worthwhile to max out that scale, regardless of what that preference is. C+1 preference? C3 every time.

Let me provide a counter example. Take a nation that prefers Heat-1. Buy Heat-3. Congratulations, you just cost your nation 10% of its capital income for the critical expansion phase. No chance of that going down until winter, and the game starts in summer. Buy the time winter hits, your capital is likely to have a high dominion score, giving you a much reduced chance of going to Heat-2 for any extended length of time. Border provinces also suffer.

I'll admit, this sort of thinking does depend on the nation having a high dominion score, but since we are talking about the Virtue I'd say thats a safe assumption.