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  #691  
Old September 20th, 2017, 03:32 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I'll give this a shot...
Russia:

T-80 up to T-80UK 40Rds.

T-80B first to carry ATGW AT-8 SONGSTER had very poor accuracy due to MG and FCS.

T-80UK and it seems other command tanks of the series only carried 30Rds which makes absolute sense because of all the additional radio equipment carried onboard.

T-80U and later First to have AT-11 and later AT-11M (Laser Beam rider.) and improved AT-11M-1 currently. 45Rds APFSDS/HEAT/HEF & ATGW. Also these tanks carried both the 125mm 2A46M-1/2A46M-4 (In later models.) MG's.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t80.htm
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-80U.htm


Ukraine: They designed and built some these tanks (Not as primary.) You will note they've modified their tanks from Russian standards and use a different ammo type as well. This includes the Pakistani T-80 tanks as well.

T-80UD designed in Ukraine by KMDB carries 45Rds. APFSDS (3VBM17 "MANGO")/HEAT/HE-FRAG & ATGW (AT-11 SNIPER-B)
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t80ud.php

T-84 OPLOT/T-84 OPLOT-M 46Rds. carried. Ammo load-out at very bottom of ref.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/oplot_mbt.php

NOTES: Already switching to KOMBAT ATGW due to better range and accuracy.

Also in regards to the Ukraine in lieu of ref. 2 above for Russia, I will always go with the manufacturer when I can get because as already pointed out recently, they're trying to sell and or upgrade these tanks for export and current users. Pakistan again as noted, has already contracted the Ukraine to do a major upgrade to their T-80UD tanks. It wouldn't surprise me to see the same or similar happen with the Ukrainian tanks in the next couple of years as well.

More then tired right now hope this helps in my current "mindset"-good night!!


Regards,
Pat
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  #692  
Old September 20th, 2017, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

OK there will be corrections made
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  #693  
Old September 20th, 2017, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

If you find anything on the range of the Russian Sabot and HEAT rounds that would be very helpful.... I want to say that source in post 687 is wrong but maybe its not..and if it's not wrong.....well.......there is much work to do
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  #694  
Old September 20th, 2017, 11:32 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

From fprado again and I've seen his site ref'd many times by other defense sites (DID, armyrec. ETC.) to the point I have to give some credence to the data, points to the following...
REFLEKS 9M119/9M119M - 100m - 4000m.

REFLEKS-M 9M119M - 5000m

AMMO - 3000m - 4000m Max. effective depending on type. I would think, but could be wrong, with my very basic understanding of the ammo from the lower end up that'll be HEF > HEAT > APFSDS >/= ATGW.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-80U.htm

Might be useful or not.
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

That's all I have time for now.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; September 20th, 2017 at 11:48 AM..
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  #695  
Old September 21st, 2017, 06:43 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Is this the same as a HEF round...
125-mm HE-Shrapnel Focused-fragmentation, Ainet
Maximum Aimed Range (m): 5,000
Max Effective Range (m): Day: 4,000
Night: 800-1,300
Tactical AA Range: 4,000-5,000
Armor Penetration (mm): INA

The above is taken for the T-80U from the USA WEG (Worldwide Equipment Guide) starting on page 4-21 you will also note they provide ammo load/typical combat load information. Also Day and Night ranges for the ammo and notes delineate restrictive factors such as imposed by sights etc.

I've posted these in here, probably in this thread(?), this the 1999 version (Mentions the T-80UD as just coming on line for the Ukraine.

Maybe this might prevent some hair pulling!?!
https://www.isu.edu/media/libraries/army-rotc/weg.pdf

I'll bet anything
there's some JANE's in this data, the format is almost the same as well w/o the pictures.

Starting to feel the reason why I got up, time to read a book (On Brain Boru most interesting person.) and back in the rack!?!

Regards,
Pat


WEG 2011 Guide...
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/r...coll11/id/2089

Just released March THIS YEAR update to 2015 guide.
https://publicintelligence.net/us-ar...uipment-guide/

Amazon for download offers Land/Air/Sea 2015 (Complete Set)
https://www.amazon.com/Volumes-1-3-W.../dp/B0737FVCRG


WEG 2014:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/304960189...Ground-Systems
MIGHT NEED TO SETUP AN ACCOUNT TO DOWNLOAD. I've had one for years just for this kind of information.

WEG 2001: And I'm done now with this...
https://archive.org/details/OPFOR_Wo...quipment_Guide

DONE!! Sometimes we forget what's so obvious when compared civilian sources we normally deal with out here. This doesn't include the FM equipment guides myself and others have posted out here. Certainly better for our purposes when they can be used versus the conjecture of BLOGS and especially anything WIKI where any of us can be "experts" and change data on a whim.
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; September 21st, 2017 at 07:04 AM..
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  #696  
Old September 21st, 2017, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

I'll take a good look at this in a week or so but a quick look indicated for the 125mm guns both the sabot and HEAT have a max effective range of 3000m....that's 60 in game hexes and FWIW....HALF what we have allowed. My first task will be to figure out why that tiny detail has been overlooked by everyone for nearly 20 years but this is not just an issue with Russian guns......the info for the Chieftain Mk 5 is no different 120-mm APFSDS-T, L23A1Max Effective Range Day: 3,000m.....German Main Battle Tank Leopard 2

120-mm APFSDS-T, DM43--- Maximum Aimed Range(m): 3,500 Max Effective Range Day: INA

120-mm APFSDS-T, US Olin GD120 Maximum Aimed Range: 3,500 Max Effective Range Day: 3,000
Night: INA

120-mm HEAT-MP-T, DM-12A1/US Olin M830 Max Effective Range Day: 2,500

That last one is the US M830 and in game terms that 2500m = 50 hexes

So it would appear, and it truly baffles me how this developed, but every tank gun range is high......so the " good news" is it's not just one type or nation that is out....they ALL are and the other " good news" is the stated Maximum Aimed Range is well within the Maximum Aimed Range that most maps in the game allow anyway so for most games what you get is not any different than RL. That said, it still surprises me that after all these years NOBODY has taken issue with the tank gun ranges...more surprising than that we didn't catch it either...the simple fact is we are allowing, on average, sabot ranges that are double what they are capable of in RL for all nations
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  #697  
Old September 21st, 2017, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
I'll take a good look at this in a week or so but a quick look indicated for the 125mm guns both the sabot and HEAT have a max effective range of 3000m....that's 60 in game hexes and FWIW....HALF what we have allowed. My first task will be to figure out why that tiny detail has been overlooked by everyone for nearly 20 years but this is not just an issue with Russian guns......the info for the Chieftain Mk 5 is no different 120-mm APFSDS-T, L23A1Max Effective Range Day: 3,000m.....German Main Battle Tank Leopard 2

120-mm APFSDS-T, DM43--- Maximum Aimed Range(m): 3,500 Max Effective Range Day: INA

120-mm APFSDS-T, US Olin GD120 Maximum Aimed Range: 3,500 Max Effective Range Day: 3,000
Night: INA

120-mm HEAT-MP-T, DM-12A1/US Olin M830 Max Effective Range Day: 2,500

That last one is the US M830 and in game terms that 2500m = 50 hexes

So it would appear, and it truly baffles me how this developed, but every tank gun range is high......so the " good news" is it's not just one type or nation that is out....they ALL are and the other " good news" is the stated Maximum Aimed Range is well within the Maximum Aimed Range that most maps in the game allow anyway so for most games what you get is not any different than RL. That said, it still surprises me that after all these years NOBODY has taken issue with the tank gun ranges...more surprising than that we didn't catch it either...the simple fact is we are allowing, on average, sabot ranges that are double what they are capable of in RL for all nations
There was an exercise made by the Greek army this August in which a Leo-2A6 hit a target at 5800 meters. Granted, the conditions it achieved that were ideal and I do not know if it was a first round hit (it most probably wasn't) but the point is that tank hits at extreme ranges are possible. Wasn't there a Challenger that made an actual combat kill in 1991 at around the same range?

The best solution is to keep the current combat ranges, but make accuracy beyond 3000 meters very low, so a hit in those distances a matter of luck.
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Old September 21st, 2017, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Well, that is certainly a solution that preserves what is left of my hair.....

I'm going canoeing for a week starting Saturday and that will give me time to "refect" on this issue

There are some basic " game facts" that put why this has been overlooked for so long into focus......

..... you NEVER get to take a shot at maximum gun LOS range in the game....for one thing, the max visibility is only 90 in scenarios and 99 in generated battles and the chances of getting a dead flat map for 99 + hexes is slim to none so it's really a moot point that the ranges are longer than they should be. Your 5800m Greek example is 116 hexes. An impressive shot to be sure but you'll never make it in the game because 99 ( two digits ) is THE maximum...there CANNOT be more without screwing up every save game and scenario ever made so that is NOT going to change ever.

That said I'm not sure why we ended up with the OOB version of "mission creep" when we all should have known 99 was the LOS limit

Another issue is the penetration data changes based on the max range and last time I checked what we have now was giving pen data at normal combat ranges that fit RL but that will need re-checking

RECHECKED a couple at random and the pen values at published ranges are very close with the current set up
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Old September 21st, 2017, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

The ranges are "high" only because they have to be high in order to get the desired effects at the intermediate ranges due to the high effect of the draw-down in AP values in the code if you used say "3KM" as the max range like it was some sort of atgm.

3km is an effective range, the max sabot range is theoretical. The rounds can go further as in real life, but effect will drop off.

If you took some gun that had say 30cm penetration at the muzzle, and then plonked in 60 hexes max sabot (or AP) range, then looked at the values in APcalc then you would see that your round dives in effect very steeply, and the effect at 20, 40 etc range gates would fall well below the desired effect. Effectively your APDS round would then behave as an APCR/HVAP arrow munition as in ww2 with a rapid fall-off in velocity.

Due to the draw-down effect of the formula baked into the code you must use a max range well beyond the theoretical max effective range so the line goes through the correct data points.

Guns dont stop dead at some theoretical "max effective range" - missiles though will due to wire length, or other fire-control issues.
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Old September 21st, 2017, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Thanks for reminding me

I was not having a "good day" and this dropped in my lap like flaming pine pitch......
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