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Old September 10th, 2018, 05:32 PM
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Suhiir Suhiir is offline
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Default Re: Bear vs Dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa View Post
But yeah, fighting Chinese infantry is not very relaxing indeed. Especially when they have a million mortars supporting them brrr.
2x60mm per infantry company.
6x82mm per infantry battalion.
6x120mm per infantry regiment.

So the number of mortars wasn't out of proportion to the amount of infantry that counterattacked. It's just that there were so many infantry.

You may not have noticed but most of the Chinese transport was mules or wagons. This was due to the assumption they had to infiltrate to the battle area as a large mechanized formation would have been spotted by aerial recon or satellite.

I think another important factor was that you didn't let your armor outrun your infantry. I suspect that if you had the results would have been much different.
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Last edited by Suhiir; September 10th, 2018 at 05:44 PM..
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Old September 10th, 2018, 06:37 PM
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Post Re: Bear vs Dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa View Post
Turns 61-73 (end)

Final turns were relatively quiet. I move my remaining uncommitted mechanized and tank platoons to capture the rest of the objectives on the map. The Chinese resistance has collapsed, apart from isolated sniper fire towards the forces of the northern ridge. At turn 73, I capture the final objective and the battle ends.

The result of the battle is:



Equipment losses:

Russia

2 T-90A MBTs
3 BMP-3K Rys Scout IFVs
2 Gaz Tigr scout cars
18 BMP-3 IFVs
2 BTR-82 APCs
1 IMR engineering vehicle
4 ZSU-23-4M2 close support vehicles
1 BMPT anti-infantry AFV
1 Su-35 fighter bomber
1 Su-25 ground attack aircraft

China/North Korea

13 ZTZ-99A2 MBTs
16 PTL-02 wheeled tank destroyers
3 VN3 Scout Cars
12 Mengshi 2058 scout cars
12 Mengshi 2058 tank destroyers
1 HQ-7 self propelled SAM
2 PZG-95 SPAAGs
4 85mm AT guns
16 60mm mortars
2 57mm AA guns
3 35mm AA guns
2 23mm AA guns
4 120mm mortars
14 82mm mortars
14 HJ-12 ATGMs
1 LY-60 SAM
2 PL-9C SAMs
6 122mm howitzers

Looking at the casualties, it is clear that I had half of an infantry division attacking my motor rifle brigade. This is by far the bloodiest scenario I have played with close to 4000 casualties for both sides combined.

This battle was one between a combined arms army and an infantry heavy one. The result was predictable, although the terrain favored the latter a lot. In general, when fighting in hilly terrain the best plan is to occupy all (or at least most) crucial high ground and use that to engage the enemy with observed artillery fire, MGs and all sorts of heavy weapons. That –plan worked very well, since I managed to capture one of these locations early on. The location had only a 25 VP, but when I placed a FO with thermal imaging, its actual value was 100 times that. The Chinese sent an entire regiment trying to retake the hill, but to no avail. Just like that, I took high ground, defended the expected Chinese infantry counterattacks and moved on to victory.

Chinese did use their infantry forces well though. When they did get close, they hindered my troops a lot, using snipers and MGs, while ATGMs engaged any vehicle that skylined for long enough. Most BMP losses, as well as one of the two T-90s lost was from these dreaded Chinese ATGMs, which are actually very good (on par with Javelin and Spike). Chinese rifle squads were fighting better than their Russian equivalents, being helped by the fact that they were 12-man squads against 8-man squads. But then again it wasn’t the Russian infantry that was the real danger.

The real danger came from the traditionally strong Russian combat arm: the artillery. This was one of the scenarios that most casualties were from artillery (probably close to the real life 70-80%). The Russian artillery stopped infantry assaults dead in their tracks, hindered AFV movement, neutralized enemy mortars and on-map artillery and sniped ATGM and SAM targets. The well-placed forward observers were the main reason for its success, since the accuracy of the artillery was phenomenal. On the other hand, the Chinese relied on a lot of mortars. While these caused no vehicle casualties, they did cause infantry losses, lowered morale and caused many vehicles to become immobilized. The fact that the Russian force was for a long time concentrated on a small area helped in their effectiveness. Thankfully, Chinese heavy artillery was few in numbers and used for just CB fire for the beginning of the scenario. They did fire on my units towards the end, with devastating results, but it was too little, too late.

Russian armor was quite effective too. AFVs of all sorts were supporting the infantry successfully when there was the need to go on the offensive. Even defensively they cut down Chinese forces, since they were usually placed between the hills in order not to be targeted by ATGMs (the few times I was not successful in that I quickly regretted it). Chinese armor on the other hand was not effective. They either hang back on a defensive stance (which made them easy targets for artillery), or made an ineffective counterattack in the end, coming towards my well placed killing zones.

Only Russians had air force of any kind, but its effectiveness was minimal. The Chinese AA was quite successful in denying the area to my aircraft, despite their losses. Most of my helicopters retreated off map by the end of the scenario, while I also lost two aircraft as well.

In the end, Russians achieved a marginal victory. While they had significant losses, they practically destroyed their enemy and they did capture the important Chosin Reservoir. The Russian advance to Pyongyang may now continue.

I thank Suhiir for the very entertaining scenario. I hope to see even more of these interesting scenarios in the future.
Thanks Aeraaa for another informative AAR. Somewhat of a spoiler, but otherwise excellent.

"Chinese armor on the other hand was not effective. They either hang back on a defensive stance (which made them easy targets for artillery), or made an ineffective counterattack in the end, coming towards my well placed killing zones."

Yeah, it is difficult to model AI armor in any effective manner. Not impossible, just very difficult. Then again, against very good players with "...well placed killing zones" AI armor is weak, as you have shown once again in Bear vs Dragon.


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