Armoured trains

[Starmyth]

Hmmm. I'm not liking the concept of Panzertrains.

[Helm]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to design a very small map "skirmish type" game using the dismounted turret type pillbox units etc which have no actual movement,it wouldn't look pretty but it might work,any thoughts from people who (unlike me lol) actually know what they are doing with scenario design etc ?

[PatG]

Re: Helm
That's pretty much what my proof of concept attachment was about - ugly as sin but covers the bases. By editing a unit within the scen generator one could put together a passable armoured train. A MKIV from above looks a lot like a BP44 pursuit car. The dummy Somua uses the tank transport idea from the Spanish OOB to represent the tank carrying cars.

I am thinking about making a small partisan/train scenario - I'll post it here if/when it's done.

One problem stands out and that is density. Each hex is 50m that covers a lot of train - and a lot of guns. (realisticly 2x75L 1x 4x20mmAA, 6-8 mg and a bunch of squaddies for dismount would be historical) - IF we were to go ahead with graphics, we would need a "generic" armoured train icon at reduced scale spanning a hex width and several "no icon" units to represent the actual firing groups.

[thatguy96]

Listy did something similar in his UK OOBs where he created a whole ship in three parts, for the middle and the fore and aft sections, each with the appropriate armament. Of course the issue there is that all the parts move seperately, but if you have a train stopped with no movement, It should be fine.

[MarkSheppard]

Crossposted from another forum I'm a member of

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Panzerzug!

Armored Train Tidbits

I recently acquired four books on armored trains; German Armored Trains In World War II, German Armored Trains In World War II Volume 2 and German Armored Trains on the Russian Front 1941-1944 all by Wolfgang Sawodny plus Armored Trains of the Soviet Union 1917-1945 by Wilfried Kopenhagen. The first two German books are technical histories, the third is an operational history and the Soviet book is mainly a technical history. All of them are mainly photos but with plenty enough of informative text and all are published by Schiffer Military History. According to Wolfgang Sawodny his first armored train book, published in 1989 was the first book on the subject known to exist, at least in western press and his later works where possible only because the book caused many armored train veterans to come forward.

Each book costs ten bucks new and if you have ANY interest in the subject I suggest buying them. It was more then worth it; you certainly won’t find much information on the internet, I’ve looked and most of it COMES from these books, nor do many if any other books on the subject exist even now. The first two German books are a bit redundant in text, but all three of them are at least 90% new photos, redundant photos are only used when a correction is being made to the identification text. Some photos are included specifically in a search for information on them.



Now for the tidbits, well more then tidbits, but anyway…

While there was a truly immense diversity of armored trains in German service, including capture Polish, Chinch and Russian units, and mixtures of Russian and German cars plus many ‘one off’ cars improvised in depots Germany did developed and produce a standardized type, called BP 42 (BP = series). This train had ten cars and symmetrical, with an armored locomotive designated BR 57 (BR = class) locomotive based off the Prussian State railway G10 at the center. This engine had an armored tender forward and behind for extended range. While it is not explicitly stated I believe the forward tended probably held only water, as steam trains need water more often then coal.

Moving from front to the first tender the train was arranged as follows.

The first car was a ‘pusher car’, basically a flatbed car with track repair material. It protected the train from pressure mines and from being rammed by other trains or freight cars loaded with explosives, a tactic employed in the Russian Revolution.
The next car was the tank carrier car; it held a single dismountable tank, normally a captured French Somua S. 35 or Czech LT-38. Armored skirts protected the tanks running gear, and a ramp was permanently attached to the front of the car, to dismount the ‘pusher car’ as uncoupled (this could be done remotely) and the train reversed, the tank then rolled down the fixed ramp and into action.
After this came the first artillery car, it mounted a captured Soviet 76.2mm gun designated 7.62-cm F.K. 295/1(r) at the front, and a quadruple 20mm flak gun aft, superfiring. It also had a roof mounted searchlight.
The next car was a command car; the command cars served several purposes, besides command and radio facilities they also held the trains, medical facilities, various supplies, bunks and part of the infantry detachment, normally one platoon per train besides the basic crew. The command car had no fixed armament, but it did have a fixed observation cupola on the roof, and like the artillery cars it had numerous firing ports with movable shutters for infantry weapons.
Next came another artillery car, also with a fixed observation cupola and a gun turret with a captured 100mm gun designated 10-cm-le.F.H 14/19(p). The next car was the forward tender; the rear of the train had the same car arrangement only reserved for symmetry. Each group of two artillery + command cars had connecting armored tunnels, and besides side hatches some cars had a hatch on the bottom, protected by vertical armor, so that men could dismount between the rails while under enemy fire.

Besides its basic cars, each train also had an assigned pair of captured French Panhard 4x4 armored scout cars, designated Panhard 38(f) in German service (I don’t know what the French designation is) and armed with a 25mm cannon and a machine gun. The cars could run on rails or roads and the wheel change took only ten minutes, however the second set of wheels couldn’t be carried on the scout car.

The train armor was sloped on the scale of 15-30mm, it provided complete protection including protection to the wheels and axles; aside from the locomotive and tenders all cars had two axles. Because the axle load of a railway car is limited, this issue made it impossible to upgrade the armor protection in the future. In addition, by 1943 the main threat to armored trains besides air attacks was command (rather then pressure) detonated mines (or IEDs if you like) which could strike any car, usually these mines destroyed or damaged 1-3 cars and often the train could continue operating or at least withdraw its self for repairs. To improve IED protection some cars had wooden crossties stacked underneath.

Some BP 42 trains had slightly different armaments, they might have all four guns as 7.62 or 10cm types, in some cases they went into action with 120mm mortars instead of the howitzers, and the 20mm quad flak was sometimes replaced by a twin 37mm type.

However the BP 42 was flawed, it was so powerful that partisans would simply not engage them; they planted mines or ran away. The train was relatively cumbersome for the anti partisan role in any case, as it cruised at no more then 40kph and simply wasn’t fast enough to respond to individual partisan attacks. It also lacked any effective anti tank weapons, and this combine with the thin armor made it unsuited to conventional combat. The trains where none the less very effective deterrents, and the dismount tanks and infantry platoons could seek out the partisans away from the rails.

To solve these problems, the Germans introduced several changes. The first was the improved BP 44 (introduced with armored train no. 73 in early 1944) armored train. This train retained the same number of cars and basic arrangement as BP 42, but with the ‘pusher car’ deleted. Since partisans used command detonated mines, it offered little protection and was replaced by an ‘armored pursuit car’ or ‘Panzerjager car’. This was also based on a flatcar, but with a superstructure and a Panzer IV turret with L48 75mm gun, though sometimes a captured T-34 76 turret was fitted owing to a chronic shortage of ‘armored pursuit cars’. The artillery armament was standardized with four German built 10.5cm-F.H. 18M howitzers.

This all made the trains more powerful, but it did not make them more effective against partisans. The solution to that was in a whole new concept of armored train. Instead of a series of cars pulled by a locomotive, the new ‘light scout car’ and ‘heavy scout car’ armored trains employ a series of individually powered armored trolleys, each with a 76hp engine. While the ‘heavy scout car’ train was no faster at 40kph then the BP 42 or BP 44 they could travel three times as far without refueling, and both trains could split into several smaller groups or even individual cars, allowing far more ground to be covered. Besides which, each car was much lighter, and could operate on inferior track which could not support a larger train. The ‘light scout car’ type could reach 70kph, a great increase, though high speed was a big risk if the train struck a mine.

The ‘light scout car’ type had ten uniform cars, with eight sided sloped armor sides (each end had three facets) and two fixed observation copulas. The only armament was machine guns, for which two flank and four end ports where provided plus a number of additional loopholes. Armor was uniform at 14.5mm.

The ‘heavy scout car’ type had twelve armored cars with varying equipment. This consisted of one command car, one tactical transport car for the infantry, two basic infantry cars (not sure what the difference between types is) armed with various machine guns and a pair of 81mm mortars (total, not per car), one engineer car with machine guns and a flame thrower, one transport car for dismount artillery, four gun cars with a Panzer III or more often Panzer IV turret with L24 gun (sometimes mortars owing to a tank turret shortage) plus two anti aircraft cars each with quad 20mm flak. In addition the train had two tank carrier cars like the BP 42/44 and two pusher cars like BP 42. Like the larger standard armored trains two Panhard armored cars where also attached. The train carried 25 infantry, and could operate in any configuration with automatic coupling and uncoupling.

However a shortage of material mean very few of either train type was built; though some individual armored rail cars based on the designs also operated. Work on ten heavy scout car trains began, but only two made it into service fully functional.
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An interesting prototype Panzejager for uber anti tank firepower had four axles and mounted a Panzer IV turret with L48 gun at each end, with a cool looking two level cupola in the center. However while the idea was suggested in 1943, by the time it was built a material and above all tank turret shortage made it impossible to implement mass production, only three got completed and may never have been used.

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In August 1944, after many losses in Russia and ever increasing demand in the Balkans armored train construction priority was placed at the second highest level. This was a priority level equivalent to Panther and Tiger tank production!

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With typical Teutonic precision, early German armored locomotives used ‘form fitting’ armor which followed the contours of the engine. This however made the work complex, and what was more all the angles created a maze of shot traps! Later locomotives used uniform ‘slab sided’ armor which stood off from the engine and provided better protection, it also made maintenance easier as workmen could get in behind the plating.

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More to come…

[PatG]

I've drawn up a generic tank-engine. It looks pretty good but I need more information on scaling. I'm looking at some of the existing shp files to rob for turrets etc.

If any interested parties have top down views of rolling stock - esp armoured units but even flat cars and passenger cars would be good, I would love to see them.

Once I get a few more done, I'll post them as Icon0110.shp which remains un-used at the moment.

[PatG]

Release early and release often.

The attached file is in no way official and may very well corrupt your game and cause the next world apocalypse. Use at your own discretion. Which at the moment means unzipping into the graphics folder, loading it up in SHPedit and looking at it.

I am not an artist so no whining about the quality. I have gone with "European" sized rolling stock with one car per hex.

A "proof of concept" scenario is in the works.

[PatG]

Here we go again!

Attached is the latest version of Icon0110.shp, a bmp of the icons so far and a proof of concept scenario 343 Winter Wolves.

As always, not approved by the powers that be and may corrupt your game, cause impotence and affect the outcome of the world cup.

Enjoy!

[MarkSheppard]

Picture of the Panzerzug scenario, looks pretty good in my opinion; 1 hex per car is about right I think.

[Helm]

looks ok to me