.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

The Star & the Crescent- Save $8.00
winSPWW2- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old January 4th, 2010, 02:49 PM
Mardagg Mardagg is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 293
Thanks: 12
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Mardagg is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAJ View Post
@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.
Good Point.
But there is one thing we all have to keep in mind:
Being difficult to play isnt the same as being hopelessy underpowered.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old January 4th, 2010, 04:44 PM

quantum_mechani quantum_mechani is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,968
Thanks: 24
Thanked 221 Times in 46 Posts
quantum_mechani is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

On the subject of MA Ulm and Mackaka:

There is a reason I haven't arbitrarily upped the power of their national mages (or nerfed the magic levels of powerful nations mages). If anything is thematically defining about a nation it's the paths the mages have, so I am very reluctant to meddle with them.

Mackaka I don't think is nearly so bad off as people seem to think. As they stand I would say they are at probably better than Man, Eriu, MA Ulm or MA Agartha, and arguably better than Bandar Log or MA Marignon. Which is not to say I'm opposed to boosting them, I already made the hunter spiders much cheaper and upped the MR of the spider form, and improved PD is in the works.

MA Ulm is perhaps more legitamitly poor, but they are much harder to boost within the theme. In any case it's not like being forced to branch into blood was really a good solution to them being better either (it's also a bit hard to swallow that a nation without the native ability to forge any gem gens is made comparatively worse off by the change than those that could). I do think making the iron angel easier/cheaper to cast is an excellent idea.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old January 4th, 2010, 05:32 PM
GrudgeBringer's Avatar

GrudgeBringer GrudgeBringer is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 1,460
Thanks: 13
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
GrudgeBringer is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

OK guys...I just wanted a list of EA weaker nations so I could post a list and you could pick from it for a game.

MY list included Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Argatha...after that I was relying on the forum.

Also, if you read the description, it was land nations only so any argument between Ryleh and Argatha is pointless in this thread (as much as I was enjoying it).

Thanks for the other nations mentioned and why, as I said I have not played CBM 1.6 much if at all, so I really didn't want to put in a nation that had been boosted and I was relying on old info.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old January 4th, 2010, 06:48 PM

Sombre Sombre is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,463
Thanks: 165
Thanked 324 Times in 190 Posts
Sombre is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

I still believe both MA and LA Ulm troops should be boosted in the form of another enc taken off. Their melee troops are supposed to make you want production scales without any question and are supposed to be pretty much the best, highest tech troops in all of dom3. It's their whole thing - steel over magic. I don't think it goes against theme at all to just give them 1 less enc on all the heavies. This is a nation that lives in its armour.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old January 4th, 2010, 07:57 PM

kianduatha kianduatha is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 403
Thanks: 15
Thanked 28 Times in 21 Posts
kianduatha is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

As far as actual EA land nations...Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Agartha, Abysia, Tir Na Nog, and after that it's less clear. Just pick a few from Yomi, C'tis, Ermor, and Kailasa.

Now to the off-topic part: Machaka's fine once Hunter Spiders get the 5 strength they're missing and get a buff to their PD.

Ulmish troops truly could use a lower Enc, though for MA I'm more concerned with Iron Angels being more or less impossible to get out with your base casters. That's even okay--just make it Research 7 and 15 gems if your pretender has to cast it, though. Because face it, Iron angels aren't as good as the Earth Royalty, and if they're on the same research level and you don't have enough gems for both...

Also, if Wolfherds are training and breeding wolves, shouldn't their summon allies be better than normal wolves?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old January 4th, 2010, 08:12 PM
KissBlade's Avatar

KissBlade KissBlade is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,055
Thanks: 4
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
KissBlade is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

LA Ulm is definitely not deserving as one of the ten weakest nations. Rangers + shields are already ye olde proven tactic of xbows + blockers. Zweihanders and ghoul guardians (the latter of which are very nice against pretenders) are pretty nice melee cleavers. You get very very underestimated mages especially recruit-able everywhere second tier astral2/blood 1 mages who doubles as spies!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old January 4th, 2010, 09:28 PM
Tolkien's Avatar

Tolkien Tolkien is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 401
Thanks: 15
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Tolkien is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

I shall jump on the LA-Ulm-isn't-underpowered bandwagon. A blood economy isn't that hard to start up: 3-4 Second Tiers and a nearby province and you'll be churning out enough slaves to summon a count or two in short order. Once the counts have been summoned, you then start relying on Blood-Random Fortune Tellers and Vampire Counts to boost the blood economy.

Early research is a problem, but it's a problem that doesn't last for too long. A major point of LA Ulm would be to put up castles ASAP. At 5RP for 170/5.67 gold, or 34/1.13 gold per Research point at Magic-1, Iron Priests are fairly cost effective researchers. While not the best, Ulm can certainly keep up in the research race beyond the first few months (where your mages will go directly into blood hunting), and certainly towards the midgame (with lightless lantern spam and/or skull mentors (if you really need it). At 4 gems a pop with their forge bonus, it's fairly cost-effective even without a dwarven hammer (which will simply reduce the gem cost by 1, and you need your earth gems for other things)).

I'd argue that Ulm is a fairly difficult nation to rush. No nation reliant on sacreds are going to go near Ulm, for the simple matter of ghoul guardians. I posted the test results in the CBM thread, but I think they clearly demonstrate ghoul guardians slaughtering dual-blessed sacreds. Elephants are easy to beat with Rats tails (+4 Animal Awe+Greater Fear on x2Attack+Const-2+N1), which are easily forgeable by Nature-Random Fortune Tellers. A Hochmeister with a Rat's Tail with one black templar bodyguard or two can rout many an elephant (not to mention elephants are expensive). If we compare Ulm's troops to Marignon's, they're nearly identical. The pikemen and halberdiers are the same in price and cost, and have identical stats except for HP and MR (+2 HP vs. +1 MR). Comparing Rangers to Crossbows, Rangers cost +3 gold, but has +2 Precision, Stealthy, Forest Survival, and are better in close combat then Crossbows. Men-at-Arms are +2 gold and -1 resources compared to Infantry of Ulm, and are better overall in close quarter combat, but Infantry perform better in their intended role, i.e. arrow catchers. The lower MR isn't really felt by Ulm during expansion and the early game. Who's going to mass units to exploit that weakness early on, mindblasting R'lyeh? They have the gold for that? When we move on into the mid-game, where nations will certainly start putting together MR reliant counters, you can easily put up Anti-magic and/or spam Tempering the Will with or without communions. Therefore, while the units aren't awesome, they certainly aren't crap.

While expanding can be a pain, there are actually several methods you can take beyond just the simple xbows+bows/shields technique. Certainly templars can be used as a quick and easy expansion methods against most indies, and Call Lesser Horror+retreat is also a viable expansion method (one that works similarly for, say, Bogarus), if you choose to go down that path. Expansion might not be as easy as, say, Mictlan and dual-blessed jags, but they can do it well enough. You just need to get creative, and find a good combination of the three.

Generally, I'd say it's a pretty good nation with a strong end-game (with Astral, Death, AND Blood). There can be minor tweaks made to it, for example lowering the cost of counts (this is something I suggest, although it may mean even larger armies of chaff for Ulm), encumberance, boosting the summon of wolfherders, etc., but honestly, it stands pretty well by itself. Stealthy communions and non-mindhuntable spies are underestimated, as well as kamikaze counts (hey, medallions of vengeance are only 4 fire gems. Why not?).
__________________
¡Che Cthulhu! ¡Viva la R'lyehlución!

Last edited by Tolkien; January 4th, 2010 at 09:50 PM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tolkien For This Useful Post:
  #38  
Old January 4th, 2010, 09:35 PM
Mardagg Mardagg is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 293
Thanks: 12
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Mardagg is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

excellent post Tolkien
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old January 4th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Tolkien's Avatar

Tolkien Tolkien is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 401
Thanks: 15
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Tolkien is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

I should've probably also mentioned that crystal matrixes (easily forged by astral randomed priests) lets you boost and cast fire arrows, wind guide, and arrow fend, to add to your crossbow fire.
__________________
¡Che Cthulhu! ¡Viva la R'lyehlución!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old January 5th, 2010, 02:58 AM

chrispedersen chrispedersen is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,075
Thanks: 203
Thanked 121 Times in 91 Posts
chrispedersen is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Nations under CBM 1.6

You've gotten quite good at LA-Ulm Tolkien = ).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2020, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.