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  #1  
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Mardagg Mardagg is offline
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Default Magic Items under CBM

Since i might make a Magic Item mod sooner or later, I want to hear people`s opinions/ideas about the current situation using CBM 1.6.
I think QM generally did a great job in balancing and polishing the items,but there is still room for improvement imo.
My plan is to not only improve balance but also make many items more thematic as well as adding some(not much) new items here and there.

I would like to start with the general situation concerning 1-handed and 2-handed melee items and some uniques.
I think this is where still can be done quite alot,thematically as well as for balancing reasons.

For a start,i think that:

-Fire and Frost Brands are too strong for the price
-many 2 handed items are extremely underpowered(e.g. Wraith Sword) and could need more thematic polishing(e.g. Hell sword).
-some uniques still need to be evaluated differently(e.g. Black mirror) or changed(Fever Fetish should be non unique again)


So far,i got the following ideas concerning some of the above:

-Fire and frost brand should remain massable therefore increasing the price shouldnt be an option.
I would like to see them dealing less base damage.
That would still make them equally strong vs chaff like PD,but it would make especially the Armor piercing effect of the fire brand significant weaker vs SC`s/thugs.
Shadow Brand i would like to see dealing AN damage ,and generally making it stronger and more expensive.
It is meant to be a Cons 6 weapon after all ,so it is thematically appropriate to make it actually stronger than the other brands imo.

-Wraith sword is the single most underpowered item in cbm imo.
Below average damage,average stats,nerfed life drain since dom2, uses 2 hand slots, very expensive with 25 gems+cons6.
It is actually dealing less damage than many single handed weapons!
Thematically it should be a no brainer therefore to improve the damage output by a lot and the stats also quite a lot.
On top of that i would consider to make it just 15 Death gems.
Hell sword on the other hand is also slightly underpowered atm.
Here i would like to see a more extreme version,while staying at the same price.For sure some more offensive power,like Armor piercing attack or improving Att/Damage.

-Some uniques are still too expensive in the light of the many changes to other items.
Fever Fetish should be treated differently than Clams imo ,making it non-unique again,but maybe making it 1 step more expensive.Blood stone is unique,therefore a booster item is needed for Earth using a misc slot(any ideas?).
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  #2  
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:43 PM

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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

I wouldn't make Fever Fetish non-unique again. It may or may not be overpowered, but its use promotes micromanagement which is not ultimately very fun.
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  #3  
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:49 PM

Tollund Tollund is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
-many 2 handed items are extremely underpowered(e.g. Wraith Sword) and could need more thematic polishing(e.g. Hell sword).
The wraith sword was 10 death gems in Dom 2, and with full lifedrain was just about the only weapon thugs tended to use other than blood thorns. With partial lifedrain, I'd probably try it at a cost of 15 gems to see if that makes it worthwhile before adding too much damage.

Quote:
-some uniques still need to be evaluated differently(e.g. Black mirror) or changed(Fever Fetish should be non unique again)
Are fever fetishes cursed? Because if they aren't, then they run into the gem generating problem again. Maybe make items that cast particular fire/astral/earth spells at the beginning of a battle rather than making the gem generators non-unique.

Quote:
Fever Fetish should be treated differently than Clams imo ,making it non-unique again,but maybe making it 1 step more expensive.Blood stone is unique,therefore a booster item is needed for Earth using a misc slot(any ideas?).
The only booster items available for Earth magic are the pebble skin suit and the tome of gaia (also does nature). It's not possible to add magic path boosts to new or existing items. One could also maybe reduce the path levels on some of the E5 spells so that E2 mages would only need one booster to cast them. petrify is a candidate here.
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  #4  
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:56 PM
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Quitti Quitti is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

My opinions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
-Fire and Frost Brands are too strong for the price
Yes. I Agree.
Quote:
-many 2 handed items are extremely underpowered(e.g. Wraith Sword) and could need more thematic polishing(e.g. Hell sword).
Yes, some (especially) 2h items need to be re-evaluated price- and damagewise.
Quote:
(Fever Fetish should be non unique again)
No. It's the most micro intensive gem gen in the game, and a gem gen which ultimately makes the game boring and predictable.

Quote:
Blood stone is unique,therefore a booster item is needed for Earth using a misc slot(any ideas?).
Tome of Gaia to con6, increase it to e4n1 or around that. Staves of elemental mastery + robes of magi are already f4w4/e4a4/a5n5, so at least e4. Problem is that most nations that benefited from blood stones can't get e+n in national mages (MA/LA Ulm, Agarthas). One more nature booster at that high cost shouldn't be an issue, as there is already a way of getting +4 nature without too much effort if the caster has full slots. Still, it's not usually a really bad idea to have nature magic on your pretender with these nations (especially LA Ulm).

Other option would be to make troll armor con6, put the price to around e4b1-b4 or so. It has severe disadvantages though, I wouldn't suggest this.
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  #5  
Old January 18th, 2010, 06:21 PM

Sombre Sombre is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

I've always thought tome of gaea should just be made into an exact copy of the blood stone in terms of reseach and path requirements. The nature boost is then just a replacement for the lost gem genning.

Bloodroot Manual or something as a name.
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  #6  
Old January 18th, 2010, 06:56 PM

kianduatha kianduatha is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombre View Post
I've always thought tome of gaea should just be made into an exact copy of the blood stone in terms of reseach and path requirements. The nature boost is then just a replacement for the lost gem genning.

Bloodroot Manual or something as a name.
That's certainly the least disruptive option available, but on the other hand the only nations that don't go through crazy hoops to get bloodstones are the Pangaeas, LA Ulm and MA Abysia. Do we really want earth-heavy nations to keep on getting blood-4 on their pretender(or worse, setting up scout-provinces)? At least lower it to B2 or something to account for no longer having gem generation. E2B1 or E3B1 seems much more reasonable if you're not also getting infinite earth gems.
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  #7  
Old January 18th, 2010, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kianduatha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombre View Post
I've always thought tome of gaea should just be made into an exact copy of the blood stone in terms of reseach and path requirements. The nature boost is then just a replacement for the lost gem genning.

Bloodroot Manual or something as a name.
That's certainly the least disruptive option available, but on the other hand the only nations that don't go through crazy hoops to get bloodstones are the Pangaeas, LA Ulm and MA Abysia. Do we really want earth-heavy nations to keep on getting blood-4 on their pretender(or worse, setting up scout-provinces)? At least lower it to B2 or something to account for no longer having gem generation. E2B1 or E3B1 seems much more reasonable if you're not also getting infinite earth gems.
Vanheim/Helheim is able to get them via Vanadrotts. On the other hand, these later can't use boots...
Generally, an idea is about as sound as is possible under existing mod commands, I think.
Still, I don't see these 3 items as actually disruptive - and I see them being artifacts as effectively banned for they would be just useless as unique items - especially true for the Fetish.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 04:36 AM

Psycho Psycho is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

I completely support the frost and fire brands nerf idea. That should make it's way into CBM.
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  #9  
Old January 19th, 2010, 07:47 AM

Amorphous Amorphous is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
Since i might make a Magic Item mod sooner or later, I want to hear people`s opinions/ideas about the current situation using CBM 1.6.
I think QM generally did a great job in balancing and polishing the items,but there is still room for improvement imo.
My plan is to not only improve balance but also make many items more thematic as well as adding some(not much) new items here and there.

I would like to start with the general situation concerning 1-handed and 2-handed melee items and some uniques.
I think this is where still can be done quite alot,thematically as well as for balancing reasons.
The first question that springs to my mind here, is whether you have thought through what kind of balance you have in mind.

Dominions is an intricate game and consequently so is trying to balance the magic items in it. Magic items do not just require a certain level of researched construction magic and a number of gems, they require a particular kind of gem. And just as the magic paths differ when it comes to summons, rituals and battle magic, so they differ in how they perform in the area of forging.

Quote:
For a start,i think that:

-Fire and Frost Brands are too strong for the price
-many 2 handed items are extremely underpowered(e.g. Wraith Sword) and could need more thematic polishing(e.g. Hell sword).
-some uniques still need to be evaluated differently(e.g. Black mirror) or changed(Fever Fetish should be non unique again)


So far,i got the following ideas concerning some of the above:

-Fire and frost brand should remain massable therefore increasing the price shouldnt be an option.
I would like to see them dealing less base damage.
That would still make them equally strong vs chaff like PD,but it would make especially the Armor piercing effect of the fire brand significant weaker vs SC`s/thugs.
I do not think it a mere happenstance that it is fire and water - two paths not generally though of as very powerful in other areas - that are needed to craft these. However that may be, in comparison to the other weapons at construction 4 they do not seem that out of place.

Take the Fire Brand for example. Its damage and attack/defence are not that much better than the Sword of Sharpness at construction 0 and the area attack is the same as that of the Demon Whip at construction 2. Personally I think it a very bad idea to have the Demon Whip as is in CBM at construction 2 - it is just too early for that kind of area attack - but even if you bump it up to construction 4 the argument remains the same.

Also, I have to wonder if making the fire brand less effective against SCs and thugs this way is really a good thing. Big and strong commanders will not care much that you knock off a couple of points of inherent damage, but smaller and weaker commanders will. CBM has already made it easier to kill ordinary troops through price and path reductions of items (cfr Demon Whip), so I have a hard time seeing it as balance promoting to tip the scales even further in the direction of physically impressive commanders.

Nevertheless, if you really wish to take them down a notch, how about just bumping them up to construction 6? They will still be massable, but come sufficiently late that there will be a lot more counter measures available at a relatively cheap price.

Quote:
Shadow Brand i would like to see dealing AN damage ,and generally making it stronger and more expensive.
It is meant to be a Cons 6 weapon after all ,so it is thematically appropriate to make it actually stronger than the other brands imo.
It is already a decent weapon that does what it sets out to do and death is already a powerful path, so I really do not see the need. Also, if you actually intend to lessen the power of the other brands, the difference will be huge. That seems not quite well advised.

Quote:
-Wraith sword is the single most underpowered item in cbm imo.
Below average damage,average stats,nerfed life drain since dom2, uses 2 hand slots, very expensive with 25 gems+cons6.
It is actually dealing less damage than many single handed weapons!
Thematically it should be a no brainer therefore to improve the damage output by a lot and the stats also quite a lot.
On top of that i would consider to make it just 15 Death gems.
That seems rather extreme. To say the least.

Whatever the glory of lifedrain in the hallowed times of Dominions 2, it is still a very powerful effect. A weapon with lifedrain is as good as having a small amount of regeneration and a huge amount of reinvigoration. Using other equipment, this would cost you a couple of slots and at least 15-20 nature and earth gems. Giving the sword all around better stats and making it cost just 15 death gems makes it not just very powerful, but also very, very cheap.

As is, the Wraith Sword is very useful when you are not swimming in nature and earth gems but have a sizeable death economy. As such I really do not think it needs a boost.

Quote:
Hell sword on the other hand is also slightly underpowered atm.
Here i would like to see a more extreme version,while staying at the same price.For sure some more offensive power,like Armor piercing attack or improving Att/Damage.
Again, lifedrain is powerful. And it goes very well with berserk.

Thinking of my earlier words about balance, look at your weapon suggestions as a whole. The primary beneficiaries of your changes are death and to a lesser extent blood. Do these paths really need the boost?

Water and fire take the hit. Do they need toning down?

Last edited by Amorphous; January 19th, 2010 at 07:49 AM.. Reason: Clarity
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  #10  
Old January 19th, 2010, 07:59 AM
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Quitti Quitti is offline
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Default Re: Magic Items under CBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorphous View Post
As is, the Wraith Sword is very useful when you are not swimming in nature and earth gems but have a sizeable death economy. As such I really do not think it needs a boost.
Any sizeable death income tends to veer towards tartarians, not somewhat useless 2h weapons that cost a ton. I could see this argument if you used athame (ie. Blood Thorn) as your example, as blood is cheap and easy to get to those nations with access to actually forge the aforementioned item in general, and it allows you to actually wield either another 1h weapon or a shield alongside it. I don't know if this problem is due tartarians being so easy to get or being so cheap. Either way, I wouldn't certainly lose out two tartarians (gemwise, counting without hammer which would bring it down to around 1½ tarts) to a 2h weapon that can be surpassed in many ways by several 1h weapons at con4 or less.
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