.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Bronze - Save $7.00
Raging Tiger - Save $7.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT > TO&Es
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 24th, 2016, 03:39 PM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Finland OOB 10.1

First, thank you for your extensive work on stretching the game end date to 2025 and all the work you have put in those OOBs.

This time I'm concentrating on artillery. In FDF, there are numerous models to track but those have been cut back at least to some extent, especially the old Soviet Union built stuff.

As equipment, FDF lists following field guns, SPAs and MRLs: (http://maavoimat.fi/kenttatykisto)
155 K 89 FG
130 K 54 FG
122 H 63 FH
122 PSH 74 SPA
298 RSRAKH 06 MRL
122 RAKH 89 MRL

152mm Field Guns and Howitzers

In 8/2012 a blogging FDF officer wrote (in comments as a reply to a question) that:
Quote:
Q: "ovatko venäläiset tykistökaliiberit 122mm, 130mm ja 152mm poistumassa puolustusvoimien vahvuudesta? Ja minkälainen on vedettävän tykistön tulevaisuus puolustusvoimissa?"

A: "Jos aloitetaan isoimmasta, niin 152 H 88 on jo poistunutta kalustoa. 152 K 89:n ja 152 TELAK 91:n aika on myös loppumassa joten iso venäläinen kaliiberi poistuu käytöstä. 130 K 54 sinnittelee vielä jonkin aikaa. 122 H 63 pysyy palveluskäytössä hamaan tulevaisuuteen. 122 PSH 74:lle oltiin ainakin yhdessä välissä tekemässä modernisaatiota, en ole nyt kartalla onko se projekti edennyt vai onko vedetty punaiset ruksit päälle. 155 K 83 ja 155 K 98 jatkavat vielä pitkään."
Quote:
Q: "are russian calibers 122mm, 130mm and 152mm to be removed from service? And what is the future of field guns?"

A: "Starting from the biggest, 152 H 88 is already done. 152 K 89 and 152 TELAK 91 (2S5 Giatsint-S) are running out of time so big Russian calibre is to be removed. 130 K 54 hangs on for a while. 122 H 63 is in service as far as I can see. 122 PSH 74 (2S1 Gvozdika) was up for a modernization at some point, I'm not aware if the project got further or has been crossed over. 155 K 83 and 155 K 98 will be here for a long time."
From another reply,

A: "122 RAKH 89 jatkaa palveluksessa, arvioisin että vielä ainakin 15 vuoden ajan."

A: "122 RAKH 89 will continue in service, I'd say at least for 15 years [2027]."

Then from the artillerist magazine I found the exact dates for 152 TELAK 91:
http://tykkimiehet-fi-bin.directo.fi...2015_netti.pdf

First test rounds: summer 1994
Second round: summer 1995
Conscript training starts: January 1996
Taken to museum: June 16th 2015 (2 pieces, rest scrapped)

I haven't found confirmation, but it is my understanding that 152 K 89 (2A36), the sister of 2S5 Giatsint was scrapped at the same time. Others were scrapped at this feast: http://web.archive.org/web/201104110.../1135265132950

So 152mm guns end dates as I know:
  • 152 H 37 (ML20): 12/2000
  • 152 H 88-37: 12/2007 (estimated)
  • 152 H 88-40: 12/2007 (estimated)
  • 152 H 55 (D20): 12/2011
  • 152 K 89 (2A36): 6/2015
MODIFY
Unit 551 - 122 RAKH 89
End date: 12/2025

Unit 167 - 152mm Field Gun, H37 (ML20)
Incorrect start date, found credible reference for end date
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm
Start Date: 1/1946 (same as 188 - 152mm Platoon, same gun and weapon#1)
End Date: 12/2000

Unit 170 - 152mm Field Gun, H55 (D20)
End Date: 12/2011

Unit 193 - 152mm Platoon, K89
End Date: 6/2015

Unit 328 - 152 TELAK 91 (2S5)
Start Date: 1/1996
End Date: 6/2015

Last edited by dmnt; May 25th, 2016 at 12:23 AM.. Reason: Copy paste error, no start date mod for 170
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #2  
Old May 25th, 2016, 12:25 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Don, note the accidental copy of start date @ Unit 170, 152 H 55 / D20 (I copied the lines from above but missed that). Start date modification removed.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #3  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 03:38 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Missing from previous post
MODIFY
Unit 171 - 152mm Field Gun, K89
End Date: 6/2015

New stuff:

100 50 TK fixed coastal turret was retired 2007-2012.
p. 50-51 http://www.rannikonpuolustaja.fi/archive/2013_1.pdf
"Neuvostoliiton hajoaminen 1990-luvulla, rannikkotykistön ja merivoimien ydistäminen 1998 ja puolustusvoimien säästöpäätökset johtivat usean 100 TK-patterin hylkäämiseen 2000-luvun alussa. Monesta linnakkeesta luovuttiin kokonaan. Moni patteri jäi deaktivoituna paikoilleen. Toinen deaktivointivaihe saatettiin loppuun vuonna 2012, jolloin ammuttiin viimeiset 100 TK-ammunnat Upinniemessä. Tykit poistettiin ja asemat peitettiin metallilevyllä."

"The breaking up of Soviet Union in 1990's, combining coastal artillery and navy 1998 and cost savings of FDF lead to abandonment of multiple 100 TK batteries in early 2000's. Many forts were completely removed from service. Many batteries were left deactivated as they were. Second phase of deactivation was finalized in 2012 when last firings of 100 TK were performed in Upinniemi. Guns were removed and turret positions covered with metal sheets."

MODIFY
Units 590,591,592 - 100 mm Turret / + / IR
End Date: 6/2012

130mm Turret remains, projected until 2020's now.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #4  
Old June 19th, 2016, 10:38 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

SP-Mortars

MODIFY
Unit 333 - Bv206 SP-Mortar

Bv206 SP-mortars have incorrect weapon, rate of fire and possibly crew.
According to http://www.worldlibrary.org/article/...finnish%20army the BV206 SP-Mortar is L16 81mm, Finnish designation 81mm Krh 13. Unfortunately I don't have confirmation to this and FDF pages are not up-to-date with these. However, the other option is 81mm KRH 71-96 Y, also known as 81mm KRH 90 in OOB.

81mm L16 (British BV 206) / Fin BV206 KRH 64 differences
Range: 113 / 116 (130 if KRH 71, 156 if KRH 90)
ROF: 7 / 5
Crew: 5 / 8
Ammo: 90 / 80
Speed: 17 / 18
Weight: 12 / 13

Add weapon 81mm Krh 13, copy from British OOB. Alternatively use weapon #045 or #119, 81mm Mortar 71 or 90
Adjust ROF to 7 as usual to 81mm mortars.
Adjust crew to 5 (4 mortar crew + 1 vehicle driver)
Adjust ammo load to 90 in line with the British.


MODIFY
334 - Nasu SP-Mortar

National defence university thesis https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handl...pdf?sequence=2 is the source for this:
p. 19: Heitinryhmät muodostuvat kranaatinheittimenjohtajasta sekä viidestä (5) heitinmiehestä, joista yksi on oman toimensa ohella ajoneuvon kuljettaja.
"Mortar units consist of unit leader and five (5) mortar operators, of whom one is also the driver of the vehicle."

Ammo load: According to the thesis there's 4 ammo carriers for 9 firing units, carrying roughly 700 rounds or ~80 per mortar. If the true amount is something to be used then adjust ammo load, if game balance requires that units shouldn't have double the usual amount then let it be.

Modify crew: 6
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #5  
Old June 20th, 2016, 01:24 AM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,707
Thanks: 60
Thanked 284 Times in 244 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Quote:
Ammo load: According to the thesis there's 4 ammo carriers for 9 firing units, carrying roughly 700 rounds or ~80 per mortar. If the true amount is something to be used then adjust ammo load, if game balance requires that units shouldn't have double the usual amount then let it be.
Bit confused here, in game they carry 40 rounds & I cant see what the ammo carriers carry impacting this.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 20th, 2016, 11:46 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Quote:
Ammo load: According to the thesis there's 4 ammo carriers for 9 firing units, carrying roughly 700 rounds or ~80 per mortar. If the true amount is something to be used then adjust ammo load, if game balance requires that units shouldn't have double the usual amount then let it be.
Bit confused here, in game they carry 40 rounds & I cant see what the ammo carriers carry impacting this.
For example MRLs have been adjusted to two full salvos. They have an external ammo carrier, not modeled in game.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 29th, 2016, 05:43 PM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmnt View Post
SP-Mortars

MODIFY
Unit 333 - Bv206 SP-Mortar
Revisiting the old PR from FDF: they say Bv206 + 81mm mortar has a crew of 6. page 10 in
http://web.archive.org/web/201510051...df?MOD=AJPERES

I'll post a larger list of copy-paste errors and issues I found later this or next week.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 14th, 2016, 03:36 PM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Miscellaneous fixes

Biggest stuff first.

SPAAG
322 - ItPsv Leo 2 AA
Unit has incorrectly inherited T-55 features (speed, armor etc) instead of Leo 2A4. Icon has been correctly changed.

321, 322 - ItPsv *
Thermal imaging was ordered in 1996 but the installation wasn't finished until 2002. According to my sources, some of the installations were finished by 2000.
Modify: Unit 322, Vision: 40
Modify: Unit 321, Vision: 40, Start date 1/2000
Add: Copy of current Unit 321 but with start date 8/1992 and end date 12/2002 (unit without TI)

Source:
http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservila...inaari2016.pdf
"Vaunuihin tilattiin lämpökamerat vuonna 1996, mutta asennustyö vei kaikkiaan 6 vuotta."
"Vehicles had thermal cameras ordered in 1996 but the installation took 6 years in total."

"Tornien toimitukset tapahtuivat syksyllä 1991. Aseet tulivat suoraan Sveitsistä AseV3:een. Testien ja ammuntojen jälkeen lopullinen hyväksyntä vaunuille tuli elokuuhun 1992 mennessä."
"The turret delivery occurred in fall 1991. Weapons came directly from Switzerland to AseV3 [my guess: Arms Depot 3]. After tests and firings the final acceptance for vehicles happened in august 1992."

Small stuff
F/A-18 Hornet was given the JDAM as requested earlier, but mk84 used has also the JDAM kit as do the smaller ones.
- 462: JDAM 2000 lbs (now dumb iron bomb)
- 459: AGM65 Maverick -> AGM154 JSOW
JASSM (AGM158) is also probably coming in to the arsenal this year.

111 - NSV AAMG
- Vision 15, from 1/2000
Add: Copy of current Unit 111 but with start date 1/2000 and vision 15
http://maavoimat.fi/itkk
"Heijastintähtäintä voidaan käyttää valonvahvistimien kanssa."
"The reflective sight can be operated with a light amplifier"

046 - Bv 208
- ROF=0, weapon exists (should be ROF=9?)

574 - AGL Nest
KrKK 2005 has 90 HE ammo, others have 30/10 ratio of HE/HEAT.
Suggestion: give 70/20 HE/HEAT

033 - BMP-2FIN
- No armor upgrades stated. If this is a game design issue or other justification exists, skip this.

207 - RBS-70 SAM
- Only Bolide missiles have been ordered and received, not Mk2 missiles at all as per the earlier TO&E post.
Suggestion: remove or put 0 as nation id
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #9  
Old July 18th, 2016, 03:19 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Some typos in unit numbers:
046 - Bv 208: Should be 045 - Bv 208
574 - AGL Nest: Should be 576 - AGL Nest

Also on BMP-2FIN, to clarify: Modernization didn't add any armour as any additional weight was found to downgrade maneuverability. In OOB the armour has some improvement.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
  #10  
Old July 20th, 2016, 04:10 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 321
Thanks: 42
Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts
dmnt is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Finland OOB 10.1

Quick note on recent events (nothing to change OOB yet):

Minister of Defence signed the MRLS ammunition purchase contract. Deliveries start in 2016.
http://www.defmin.fi/ajankohtaista/tiedotteet?9_m=7650

also:
FDF to negotiate with South Korean military about purchasing used K9 Thunder 155 mm SPA.
http://www.defmin.fi/ajankohtaista/tiedotteet?9_m=7898
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dmnt For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.