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Old August 23rd, 2016, 07:17 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Cross country speeds

I looked at these books and many websites and listed vehicle number of driven axles in the attachment.

Bishop and Ellis, Military Transport of World war I
Bishop and Ellis, Military Transport of World war II
Bishop and Ellis, Tanks and other AFVs of the Blitzkrieg Era
Bishop and Ellis, Tanks and other Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1942-45
Phillip Trewhitt, Armoured Fighting Vehicles
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gal.htm
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/khd.htm
http://www.overvalwagen.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_...C_WC14.2C_WC40
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ha...equipment.html
http://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.c...r-melilla.html
http://balagan.info/vehicles-of-the-spanish-civil-war
http://www.warwheels.net/images/ACJFinal11.pdf

I think any vehicle with an undriven axle (4x2, 6x4) has poor crosscountry performance compared to 4x4, 6x6 or 8x8. I think it would be good to make 4x2 and 6x4 vehicles easily capable of being immobilised on any terrain type except road. And also slower than AWD types off road.
Many references say that heavier armoured cars with an undriven axle where largely road-bound, because of their weight.
Exceptions might be made for vehicles that have a transfer case giving low range gears, are light, have a very short wheelbase, have a freerolling centrally mounted pair of spare wheels, flat bottoms, engine weight over the drive wheels or very big wheels. The USA weasel is largely unboggable.
Vehicles with AWD and AWSteering are as good as tracked?
Three quarter tracks are better off-road than half tracks?
Motorbikes are too fast cross country?
Bicycles speed 6 off road?, No engine.
Opel produced 70000 4x2 and 25000 4x4 Opel blitz trucks.
Your anti-Tank trenchs stop many matildas but very few bren carriers.
Same piture appears for renault and citroen trucks.

Vehicles missing from OObs?
Britain
AEC MatadoR 4X4
Crossley Q 4x4
Humber heavy utility car 4x4
3 ton Bedford 4x4
C15 4x4
C30 4x4
3 ton ford WOT6 4x4
Austin K6 6x4
Albion CX22 6x4
USA
6 ton Cargo FWD 4X4
3/4 ton Dodge 4x4
1/2 ton amphibian Ford GPA 4x4
2&1/2 ton Studebaker 6x6
2&1/2 ton GMC 6x6
2&1/2 GMC COE 6x6
Diamond T 6x6
Germany
Ostradschlepper 4x4
Mercedes Benz L4500 A 4x4
Phanomen Granit 1500 A 4x4

I looked at the Road and crosscountry speeds of tracked vehicles in these books.

Chamberlain and Ellis, British and American Tanks of World War II.
Chamberlain and Milsom, Allied Combat Tanks.
Chamberlain and Ellis, Axis Combat Tanks.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian medium tanks 1939-45.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian light tanks 1919-45.
Chris Bishop Weapons of World War Two.
Milsom Chambrelain German Armoured cars of World War Two.
Jentz and Doyle, Panzer Tracts.

Road and crosscountry speeds are listed in the .xls attachment.
Max speeds are also theoretical I never drive my car at maximum speed.
Your Road speeds are the Maximum speeds. Max speeds are only possible on straight Autobahns.

Panzer Tracts has Maximum speed, Average road speed, and cross country.
Your vehicle road speeds could be changed from Max to Ave?

PzKw I pzjgr 40,25,10-15
PzKw I A 37.5,20,10-12
PzKw I B 40,25,12-15
PzKw I C 79,65,35
PzKw I F 25,18,14
PzKw II D 55,35,20
LaS 762 42,35,20
Marder II (Sf) 40,30,20
Marder 38t 47,35,20
PzKw III E/F/G 40,25,15
PzKw III H 42,20,15
PzKw III J 40,20,15
JagdPanther 45,25,15
Panther D 55,30-35,20
Panther G 46,30-35,20
Moebelwagon/Wirbel 38,25,20
Ostwind 35,25,20
Flakpanzer 38 42,35,20
PzKw I f 25,18,14
Nashorn 40,25,15
JagdPanzer IV F 40,25,15-18
JagdPanzer IV/70 35,25,15-18
JagdPanzer I 40,25,10-15
PanzerJager II 7.62 55,35,18-20
PanzerJager II 7.5 40,30,20
PanzerJager 38 7.62 42,35,20
PanzerJager 38 7.5 47,35,20
PanzerJager Lorr-Schlep 35,20,8
PzKw II A/B 40,25,12-15
Sd.Kfz. 10/4-5 65,45,-
18 ton H/T 8.8cm 50,35,-
Sd.Kfz. 221 80,50,-
Sd.Kfz. 222 A 70,40,-
Sd.Kfz. 223 A 75,45,-
Sd.Kfz. 250 65,30-45,-
Sd.Kfz. 251 50,30,10
Sd.Kfz. 7 50,35,-

Looking at the .xls spreadsheet I see that many of your tracked vehicles crosscountry speeds are different to the book crosscountry speeds by as much as twice or as little as half.

I posted this in mbt by by mistake, my bad.
Attached Files
File Type: txt XCountry.txt (12.4 KB, 46 views)
File Type: xls CrossCountrySpeeds.xls (71.5 KB, 22 views)
  #2  
Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

As was noted in the MBT forums where you posted this as well...... the speed shown is the max road speed , the actual speed in the game is calculated as the vehicle moves over different terrain and the result depends on what it's move class is so if you have three vehicles all rated the same speed and all are moving over the same terrain and one is tracked, one is A/T wheel and the other just wheel....they willl all move different distances.

As to "Vehicles missing from OObs".......we are NOT adding every last truck used by various armies...there is no point, we've already "over done" truck as it stands now. I would be quite happy to go back to one genereic Heavy truck, one medium truck and one light truck per OOB and save a lot of space. Multitudes of trucks simply clutter up the OOB and uselessly waste slots that are in some OOB's in short supply

And ........"Your vehicle road speeds could be changed from Max to Ave?"........... No------ the speed
values we use are NOT going to change

and finally.. "Bicycles speed 6 off road?, No engine."........ how exactly did you come up with that number ?. On basic green "clear" terrain they move one hex per turn more than foot infantry ( 4 hexes vs 3 ), across a plowed field they move the same speed as foot infantry.

Don

Last edited by DRG; August 23rd, 2016 at 08:46 AM..
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Kiwi,

At the bottom of this image is a chart showing current movement penalties for various modes of transport:




Cross
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Hahaha man..... that image is about the most useful & informative image I've seen for Steel Panthers!

Should've been included in the Game Guide as an addendum!

Many thanks for that, Cross!
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Old August 24th, 2016, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by RightDeve View Post
Hahaha man..... that image is about the most useful & informative image I've seen for Steel Panthers!

Should've been included in the Game Guide as an addendum!

Many thanks for that, Cross!

RightDeve,

You can download the guide here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50520


Cheers,

Cross
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by RightDeve View Post
Hahaha man..... that image is about the most useful & informative image I've seen for Steel Panthers!

Should've been included in the Game Guide as an addendum!

Many thanks for that, Cross!

I will look at adding this info to the GG
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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Many thanks for that!
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Old August 25th, 2016, 04:23 PM

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Default Re: Cross country speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
As to "Vehicles missing from OObs".......we are NOT adding every last truck used by various armies...there is no point, we've already "over done" truck as it stands now. I would be quite happy to go back to one genereic Heavy truck, one medium truck and one light truck per OOB and save a lot of space. Multitudes of trucks simply clutter up the OOB and uselessly waste slots that are in some OOB's in short supply
Actually, several of those "missing vehicles" are present. I wouldn't oppose returning to generic trucks - it would make some things easier. But I believe, that in most countries there should two medium trucks and two light trucks representing 4x4 (or 6x6) troop carriers and ordinary trucks, which constituted a bulk of transport.

There is also other slight problem, hard to overcome in a sensible way. In some OOBs heavy (and medium) trucks are used just as artillery tractors, what usually was not their purpose. On the other hand, a single class "prime mover" has a fault, that all tractors are put in the same class, from light tractors capable to tow only a 37 mm gun to howitzer and AA-gun towing ones... There is also an unclear distinction between light truck and utility vehicle in some cases.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 06:08 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

I am sorry I did not check the bicycle cross country speed, I think it should be walking pace but one more hex is Ok. You could also reasonably make it one less

I have looked in Mobhack and saw that there were two unused movement classes, I thought it might improve the game if one of these classes could be used to seperate out wheeled vehicles into all wheel drive (AWD) from those with undriven axles. And so I provided the list of wheeled vehicles and their number of driven axles. I then thought I should show the missing wheeled vehicles in case the change left gaps in the OObs and the missing vehicles could be used to plug the gaps. I am not saying include them in the game if it isnt neccessary.

Dividing the wheeled class into two would be good because you could replace the single wheeled group with two groups. A largely road bound wheeled group and another wheeled (AWD) group that can safely and speedily traverse rough country.
Many OObs have only a few vehicles with AWD. This will also affect the oobs that rely on Armoured cars that only have two wheeled drive but are presently using them like AWD vehicles.

In the tracked vehicle cross county speeds spreadsheet the Marder I 37L has a crosscountry speed of 6 hex but the book value of 8 kph translates to a hex speed of 3. Tiger 1 has a cross country hex speed of 6 but using the book speed it should be 3. At the other end of the list the Cromwell late has a crosscountry hex speed of 9 but using the book value this should be about 16

Of 150 vehicles listed 12 have a book crosscountry speed that matches yours.

If you can tell me what the kph to hex ratio should be I can tell you what the book crosscountry speeds are in hexs. If I divide book max speed by your max hex speeds then the answer varies from between .8 and 4.3. So it is hard to work out what that ratio should be.

Maybe the unused movement classes in mobhack can be used to put the book cross country speeds into the game?

It looks like one of the main factors affecting cross country speed is the vehicles horsepower versus its weight.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: Cross country speeds

There are 9 move classes in SP ALL are used. There IS a AWD class - #3 AT Wheel...
See HERE

The other stuff is all in the guides... From Mobhack guide:
Quote:
MOVEMENT - SPEED OF UNITS
Fighter-bomber and level bomber Aircraft Speed: 1 pt of Speed for every 100 km/h (round up past 50)
Helicopter speed: 1/3 of actual maximum speed in km/h
Spotter Plane/UAV/Gunships speed is equal to their normal air speed as calculated for fighter-bombers and bombers. The higher the number the wider the circle the Spotter Plane will fly.
Ground Speed equation is: max km/h speed divided by 3 = SPEED in hexes.
AA guns 25mm or less have 1 movement point. Larger weapons have 0.
AAMGs have a move of 2.
Certain types of terrain are are likely to cause breakdowns to vehicles entering them. This is based on distance/speed travelled (faster is worse), movement class (2WD is worse than track) and experience and vehicle weight.
also your game speeds are often incorrect... move cost of different troop types over different types of terrain VARIES...
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