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  #11  
Old January 4th, 2018, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Machineguns also do wonders for suppression of infantry/armor as well.

A while back Don sent me a WW II scenario (USMC vs Japan) to test. The US side had swarms (by USMC standards) of M5 light tanks ... 3 machineguns each ... so I just used them en-mass to locate/suppress the dug-in Japanese infantry and took very light casualties.

Don seemed rather surprised

And unless the opposition has TI smoke is wonderful stuff used offensively.
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  #12  
Old January 4th, 2018, 05:25 PM

PAnz3r PAnz3r is offline
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Uhm ok....but in one occasion a crew from an immobilized chieftain bailed out and abbandon it...I don't know why, but I was pretty near with my infantrys.

Have you ever use the SEAD aircraft? I BOUGHT A COUPLE of mig 27 khaira, they made 3 stand of attack scoring no kills, even if the enemy AA were spotted...every time they switched off their radar leaving the missile blind..

Air support seems to be pretty pointless to me, every time I tried it I was deluded, enemy AA smash my aircrafts even before drop the payload...a point waste, on the contrary the AI air support it's precise and deadly...and my AA, usually 6 ZSU 23-4 and 3 strela, defenceless against it...why?

At the moment I found the games against AI pretty challenging, but using your hints of wait for them the situation seem to become too easy...or at least easier...it's possible to set some form off enhanced AI? With which setting you play ?
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  #13  
Old January 4th, 2018, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

If a unit is immobilised in a position where it can no longer effect the battle just leave it be & carry on.
If your losing more important things, if winning & you want every enemy unit & are doing well easy option if you still have arty available & some form of transport get it in clean up.

Once you think enemy force moral is broken hit it with artillery for a few turns, the crew will bail out and retreat straight into the arms of the unit you sent back to intercept it.
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  #14  
Old January 5th, 2018, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Crews will abandon immobilised AFV if their morale is low - whether because they are the last tank of their platoon, the tank is heavily damaged, they are heavily suppressed or they know enemy is nearby, especially enemy infantry. Also if everybody around them is in retreat or worse, and/or they are isolated with known enemy nearby.

A track hit on an AFV which throws a bad morale result can lead to it immediately spitting out its surviving crew. If the track hit was the result of artillery or air bombardment then that can subsequently take out the crew.

Aircraft are only really worth the bother if you have swarms of them. SEAD planes can be useful for destroying enemy AAA units, if you buy some then buy them before the strike air so their effects come first and help the other planes. SEAD would likely only be bought if I had like 8 or 9 or more flights, and decided to spend the support points on them - i.e. an assault or an attack.

A few planes are usually not much cop - the flak may well handle those. It depends, in the early era with low ECM values on the AAA and SAMs they can do well.

I played a PBEM against a guy who forgot to buy any air defence one time, and his T-62s were the ones without an AAMG. My 2 hunters made hay in that battle!.

Air power is useful because it allows you to concentrate firepower in an operational area from hundreds of miles away. But SP battles are tactical - the points are generally better spent on artillery, though attack helos are an exception if they have good ATGM, and good EW rating.

AIrcraft are a great help if attacking or assaulting though - they can spot the enemy defenders for you.

But air power should always be uses en masse, not in driblets except against an insurgent enemy with only a few AAAMG and a couple of strelas.

In SP games, your artillery is always available and its far more dependable than planes which may decide to strafe an AAA vehicle or a truck, or even unload ordnance on your own guys. Artillery is also more persistent - a battery has 50+ shells per gun.
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  #15  
Old January 6th, 2018, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

I regularly use SEAD aircraft as I regularly play the USMC which relies HEAVILY on air support and helos. I usually find that a single SEAD aircraft is sufficient to deal with opposition radar guided AA then use helos to deal with the rest. Once the majority of their AA has been delt with air strikes are of some utility. But as Mobhack said, they're really only useful if you have swarms of them (6-8+), and that's not even remotely cost effective.

As Mobhack said, for the cost artillery is FAR more effective then aircraft. I tend to think of aircraft as a "flavor" element in WinSPMBT rather then a useful (for the cost) combat unit.
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  #16  
Old January 6th, 2018, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

I agree with both posters above me, air strike utility in this game is limited. The biggest problem is that you rarely can buy more than 2 air strikes per random game (unless playing as the USA) and if your opponent takes even a minimum of good air defenses, which aren't that expensive tbh, they are more of a liability than an asset. That being said, if you find using air strikes useful you should always remember to properly plan the routes of the air strike, the point being having your aircraft spend the least amount of time possible flying over the enemy side of the map (which is where most AA will be). And, like Mobhack said, use them in mass, not in isolated packs.

And for some reason I never liked SEAD aircraft. But even them are better than level bombers which is a unit just for show.
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  #17  
Old January 6th, 2018, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Dont entirely agree, yes aircraft or more of a lottery & hardest arm to use but they can be very powerfull.
Using against a higher Tech force is generally a bad idea but with parity or superiority can be very effective. For sure more effective in numbers unless a low tech force whenthey can still survive long enough to be beneficial.

WWII find it hard to resist all those German toys often find myself buying one good one, time to make hay.
Aaagh yet again damn AI and pesky allied air put an end to those plans, thats the AI nothing clever.

Evaluating points spent on air is not simply a case of points spent vs points killed far more important is information gathered, distraction upset caused. Never had your surprise attack totally ruined by air probably at the cost of several turns setting it up or saved your bacon by spotting their flank move.

Remember its combined arms they can be used to gather info & attack targets on their own away from ground battle but are best off supporting it, hopefully kill something but at least suppress when someone can take advantage of that. Timing you don’t need to just keep sending them in.
As said combined arms they support the ground force but need support themselves, artillery should be targeting AAA, even if not destroyed suppressed AAA helps the planes survive. Always buy planes after arty to simplify this.

Some cases they can be very useful most obvious one that comes to mind.
Air has parity or better, similar or higher EW rating.
Enemy tanks are superior impervious from the front to most of your weapons.
So you need flank shots on enemy tanks which can be very difficult to set up in some locations.
These take time to set up & more than likely is causing losses to your ground force.
Simple save time & men call in the air, if they have the weaponry use them to take out the tank.
If not setup a pass behind it, with a bit of luck you might detect more units & the tank will turn to engage opening it up for your ground forces flank shot.
So what if my plane did not kill it worth every point for creating the opportunity.

Know your enemy before committing to air because its different to artillery but in the right circumstances it can be very effective. The info it gives you on enemy positions alone can be priceless especially if your force is not mobile so you have some advance warning.
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  #18  
Old January 7th, 2018, 03:08 AM
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Fallout Re: thermal imaging...

Most interesting conversation in which I find a lot to agree with out here. John (Imp) does well to remind everyone this is a combined arms game, should I ever play a PBEM game this much I promise is that's how I've always balanced out my forces and why not? Isn't that what happens in RL and with the AI? Why would you do anything other yourself? That's the start point, "the fog of war" in between will determine how and if you arrive at your end point. That's how and when you'll really learn to play the game by knowing how to maximize your available forces at any given time under any given circumstances during a game. The AI in this game is persistent, you need to be more so just as I'm sure many human players are. Like a popular show on TV here, "you have to outwit and outlast your opponent(s) to win" regardless who that opponent is.

Playing the AI for as many years as I have before these current games, and generally speaking, I've found the AI from the start will buy top tier tanks, better than average troops, ATGM teams and some sort of artillery. My AI is normally always "tank heavy".

I prefer a platoon of the best tanks I can get, a mix of average to above average troops, artillery and if I have enough a pair of AH birds for tanks. And as I've stated many times I do maintain a logistics train (I only wish the AI could as well.). This gives me some greater flexibility in my assets with the cost being obviously expensive in resources and normally out numbered by the enemy. I do expand my "core" to cover other areas of the combined arms such as airmobile for deep insertions and as opponent HQ killers, which if I find them or suspect where they are I will take them out. If your going to kill a snake, you always cut off it's head.

Along with the above mentioned...

1. You must always "terrain mask" your units where you can, AI always has ATGM and SAM/AA units.

2. Like Chess, you should before you move look at least two to three moves ahead with your main attacking force. Also put yourself in the "If I was my enemy what would I do to counter what I see now." you must be able to anticipate your enemies moves.

3. If you're going to put your artillery in a CB position, you must go all in to be effective this is obviously referring to your "Off Map" arty. Anything less is ineffective. When to do this, that you'll just have to learn for yourself as I did. Just know there is a right time when to do this.

4. Never leave helos (or tanks) in the same space for more than a couple of turns, especially as you move closer to the front. Remember always the AI is constantly moving units to the front. So the concern is those ATGM and MANPAD teams getting within range to start creating havoc.

5. As pointed out by Suhiir, SEAD in very valuable in this game, because your best air anti-tank weapon is the AH. AI will very early on have advanced SAM units when it sees you have helos or start using air support. YOU need to buy the same as AI likes them as well, particularly ground attack and SEAD units. Your SEAD units are effective in suppressing rear area tanks/mortar and field arty that are over watching key victory hexes and combat units down range closer to the frontlines. This of course after they've met your SAM suppression requirements. Never seen the AI use them like that though.

6. AI China and Russia love to late in the game at times send in airmobile units to capture victory hexes behind your lines as well. Be prepared for this possibility.

7. Buy some SP field artillery, the above should make this clear. They're tough to spot and can give you more direct combat support.

8. There's so much more but, give yourself and the game a chance. Be patient it'll take many games to find your stride.

9. Don't be afraid to ask questions and for us in helping never forget you were where that person was once upon a time and against the right opponent maybe still are on any given turn where you made a / move.

10. JUST HAVE FUN! You'll find the right balance of forces once you determine the type of player you are but if your too aggressive well like the Russians said at KURSK "The Tigers are Burning". Too passive well, you'll pretty much also experience the above and just lose sooner regardless of who your opponent is.

Regards,
Pat
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  #19  
Old January 9th, 2018, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Point 6 made me laugh, does not happen often but can be a nightmare, nothing like rushing back to save your artillery & driving into a nest of ATGM's
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  #20  
Old April 17th, 2018, 10:40 PM

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Default Re: thermal imaging...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAnz3r View Post
Well, I'm playing a campaign, with cccp, I took a sort of Guard tank battalion, with T64b and etc...

After a couple of battle, to be honest simple battle, against canadian, us army pop up with a swarm of M60 TTI rise...meeting engagement battle...I have lost every win possibility around turn 20...then it come the slaughter house, the TI superiority it's overwhelming,

How do you manage these situations?
--Spoiler Alert--

Really. If you want a challenging scenario in which the enemy have TI and you don't try #179, The Bear Strikes (WP), a Soviet assault battle. Tried it several times; even after destroying most of (apparently) a company of TI-equipped Abrams and Bradleys on the first ridge objective there are still enough left to tear huge gaps in my assault columns. Plus they and the West Germans have cluster munitions which are devastating.

Since T-80s can't see them through the fire and smoke generated by arty (they're dug in on tree hexes mostly) I can't finish them off. Airstrikes either can't find them or fail to hit and most aircraft, including SEAD, are damaged on their first sorties from "bristling" air defenses. Any advanced infantry get pinned down by hard-to-spot MGs. What's an armchair general to do? Thanks.
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