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  #11  
Old September 13th, 2013, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Magach Chaos!

Here we are than, took a break and back. The IDF had 11 to 15 models of the M48 and M60 in service. It is really, really hard to know when each model entered service and when it was retired. Iwill do my best, fixing here what i can. I am sure alot moire can be done but honestly it would take the curator of Latrun to do it, and I am not him.

M48A1 and A2 tanks were sold to israel from 62-64 by the US and west Germany, and are accurately represented by unit 020. So far so good. **** will now hit the fan.

Unit 021 Mag'ach 3, Unit 022 Mag'ach 3:
As far as I could figure out, the tanks were all upgraded with L7 guns. There is really no need for two versions of the tank(both weapons have identical stats as it is)I also suggest an obsolete tank unit added for this tanks(start 1969 end 1980 ish). I haven't been able to find information about dates, but I would think the current dates are p. much on the spot.

Unit 023 Mag'ach 5, Unit 024 Mag'ach 5:
Start date for 023 should be 1979, Mag'ach 5 was the M48A5, only sold to Israel that year...Obsolete tank unit should exist from 1970 at the least.

Unit 025 Mag'ach 5A I havee no idea what this is. It might have existed but was probably a minor change from 5. End and start dates make no sens. Could not find it in searches. I think it should be removed.


Okey so far for today, I will try to post next on the rest of the Mag'ach units in the OOB(there are alot).
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  #12  
Old September 14th, 2013, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Magach Chaos 2!

Correction to my previous post which I cant seem to be able to edit:

Obsolete tank unit for Mag'ach 5 should be avilable from 1980 and not 1970. my finger slipped.

And back to the frying pan(no joke when talking about Pattons):

Units 026 to 029 Mag'ach Blazer
These, I assume, are meant to represent Magach 3 and 5 tanks with Blazer armor, as seen from the early 80s. This is a good idea, the Magach 3 and 5 are nearly identical there is no need to have 2 different units for them with Blazer( also as we dont know the end date of their service in reserves and can only guess). Howerver-
Unit 026 and 027 seem to be identical to me aside from their ammo load. I very much doubt there was any change in ammo loads in the IDF during that time. Moreover ammo loads vary according to sector and operations. I suggest the units be merged to save space.

Unit 029 is available until 1999, extremely unlikely date. Though the IDF had standing Magach brigades past that year, by that time we had cut down our armor corps significantly(in the mid 80s and again in the early 90s), and had received many M60 and M60A1 tanks. I suggest Unit 029 removed, and unit 028 set an end date of 1986. However, as there were probably 1,200 M48 of all types in the IDF, the reserve units with blazer probably survived until the early-mid 90s. Obsolete tank units should be made to reflect this, with the last one ending around 1993(conservative. It might have been 1988 and might have been 1995. I cant find it).

Units 030 and 031 Mag'ach 6A The Magach 6A is the M60A1 with elongated turret. the tanks were sold to Israel in 1971-1972. They were converted to Magach 6B in 1980. I think this doesn't justify two separate units. Suggest putting the stats from 031 in slot 030 and giving start date of 1/1972 with end date 12/80. An obsolete tank unit for reserves should have roughly the same end date, with a start date of 1974 or so...

Slot 031 can now be used for Magach 6C:the M60A3 supplied to Israel from 1985 to 1990. It should be identical to the original M60A3 but with IR. Availability should be 1985 to 1993 in standing units, and a corresponding obsolete tank unit for reserve units available from 1985 to the late 1990s.

Units 033 and 034 Magach 6B should have ERA.

Units 035, 036 and 037 Magach 6M 035 and 036 seem Identical to me...Am I wrong? Suggest they be united and renamed Magach 6R(early 6M). Should have LRF. Use start date from 035 and end date from 036.
Unit 036 can be moved to 035. This is the REAL 6M...The 6M had not only ERA, but a very good fire control system(a high 20s or even 30 for FCS is warranted)and LRF. Slot 36 can now be used for the past 1986 Magach 6M, with improved engine (900hp) and hence greater speed).
I think that as far as obsolete units, only one for the Magach 6R and 6M is needed. This should start around 1986 for comfort(to have only one and not 2) and should be available until late 90s. It should be a copy of the new unit now in 036 Mag'ach 6M.



God this is really hard to do. Luckily I am almost done with the tanks. Only a few more Magach variants in the next post, and than Merks.
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  #13  
Old September 14th, 2013, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Magach Chaos- The End!

Score. Found a detailed Hebrew explanation about the Magachs. too late for my last post..but now we can rock and roll on the rest.

As for my last post I mentioned that the Magach 6M should have a high FCS figure. I failed to understand how high. The 6M in fact had the Nahal Oz FCS. This is the same as Merkava 2b and Magach 7. In the OOB these are different. I suggest making them all the same. The FCS figure for Magach 6M, All Magach 7 variants, and all Merkava 2b should probably be around 38. I know this changes alot of things but it reflects reality better, as you will understand from the next changes I propose.

Mag'ach Gal units 038 and 039
Should be renamed Mag'ach 6B Gal.In reality these were Magach 6B given the Gal FCS. This is not represented, as the current unit has FCS 32...Gal is better than Nahal Oz, and is the base for the Baz FCS(as in Merkava Mk 3 Baz). These units should be given a FCS rating of 40(assuming my previous recommendation to change FCS on Merk 2b and Magach 6M+7 is accepted), showing their advantage over the Merk 2b and Mag'ach 7 when it comes to FCS. Its worth mentioning that even during my time in service in 2006-2008, the 6B Gal was considered a "sniper", and usually reserve units with these tanks hit better than standing units with Merkava 2b.

As far as dates, the end date for this should be 2004.Obsolete tank unitd should be added for the 6B Gal, running from 1988 to 2014(status is currently uncertain for the future).

An interesting unit which does not exist in game is the Magach 6B Baz. It saw the replacement of the Gal system with the Baz system. If brought into the game, it should only exist as an obsolete tank from the mid 90s until 2014. The 6B Baz was only introduced to reserve units. This should have the same FCS rating as Merkava 3 Baz- 48.

Unit 040 Mag'ach Batash This should be the 6B Gal already discussed with an improved armor design. However in the OOB the only difference I could spot was a change in ammo load. In reality the change in protection included both passive and reactive armor improvements. The units armor stats should be improved to represent this. End date for the unit should be 2004, and an obsolete tank unit should be made with start date around 2004 and end date 2014.

Unit 041 Mag'ach 7 Alef In the name of uniformity, I would change name to Mag'ach 7A. As I mentioned I would up the FCS to 38. End date should be set to 2003 when the 500th armored brigade was cut.

Unit 042 Mag'ach 7 Gimel Again, should be renamed Mag'ach 7G. FCS should be 38. End date should be 2003 like 041.

For both 041 and 042 there are doubles in 634 and 635. The class for these doubles was left 59, should be made 102 to allow the purchase as reserve units.

NO MORE MAGACHS! Hurrra!


Next post will be on Tiran tanks. I would do it now but this post is already very long.
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  #14  
Old September 14th, 2013, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Tiran tanks

found a good, but unfortunately hebrew source for this topic:
http://www.yadlashiryon.com/vf/ib_it...4/sefer274.pdf

This is about the first Tiran brigade in the IDF, its actions in the Yom Kippur war, and also a small section about the Tirans after Yom Kippur. This makes it very easy to fix dates and other issues.

The first thing to note about all of these units, is that if we maintain the current way the IDF oob works, that reserve formations use the obsolete tank unit class, than all of these need to be change to obsolete tanks. All Tirans were used by reserve units. IF(and personally I think this is a big if) IDF reserve tank formations need to have a -5 moral and exp modifier, than so should the Tiran units.

Unit 043 Tiran 4 were captured T54 tanks with minimal changes. These were all converted by summer of 73 to Tiran 4Sh. End date should be 8/1973 and not as it is now. Some Tiran 4Sh(those built off of T54A) had no electric stabilizer, setting them apart from the Tiran 5Sh discussed latter. I am not sure if this warrents adding the Tiran 4Sh as a separate unit. If it does- It should be identical to Tiran 5Sh, aside from having 1 stabilizer instead of 2.

Unit 044 Tiran 5 Should have end date of 8/1973, for same reason as unit 043.

Units 045,046,047 Tiran 5Sh The Tiran 5Sh originally was a very small conversion- replacement of the 100mm to the 105mm M68 Shrir main gun. Unlike it is portrayed in the game, the FCS was not changed. The FCS stat should be reduced to 5. The smoke discharger should be removed(it was added later)

Units 049,050,051 Some Tiran 5Sh were given a second round of conversions in the late 70s. I suggest the name be changed to Tiran 5Sh M. (M for Meshupar=improved in hebrew). The improvements included- smoke dischargers, ERA armor, fire supression system and other things but NOT an FCS change. The FCS for these should remain 5. No LRF was added! As hard as it is to believe the IDF never put new FCS on its captured T-55 tanks. It was planned and a few prototypes were made(T-55 Samovar), but was never done on great scale. I would also up the smoke dischargers to 2. In addition, an extra 7.62 machinegun was mounted, so the tank should have 2 7.62 machinguns apart from the coax, and no 12.7mm. As for end dates, the T-55 was being taken out of service in the mid to late 80s. none were around in 1993. Therefor unit 051 should be deleted.

Unit 053 Tiran 6 and 054 Tiran 6 Blazer unit 053 is a good representation of the T-62 in Israeli service. Only 100 or less were used. No major conversions were made at all. Even the coax mg was the russian one and not as in game(but this is a minute detail) The end date for 053 should be 12/1992. Unit 054 is redundant. While experiments were made, there was no major installment of Blazer on T-62 tanks in the IDF, certainly no change in range finder. AND MOST certainly no TI for the Tiran 6. I suggest deleting unit 054 and keping only 053 with date extended to 12/1992.


Next we dive into the fantastic world of merks and their endless developments.
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  #15  
Old September 15th, 2013, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Merkavas 1 and 2

Now, pat has done a lot of work on this. In general the Merkavas in the OOB are p. good representations of reality. However I do have some things I think need changing. The biggest issue is that info is confusing and contradicting as all of these tanks are still in active service(aside from the mk1 which is only in reserve service).

Units 055 and 056 Merkava Mk 1 start date for 055 should be 9/79. Also, I don't see the need for two units- suggest to delete 056 and extend date on 055. The difference is only the gun, and since the start date is late 79, I see no issue with having weapon 27(105mm M68 78) as what the Mk 1 starts with. Ammo load out for original Merkava Mk 1 was 62(not 60). This was changed later on.

Unit 057 Merkava Mk 1 As mentioned the ammo load for the main gun was later reduced to 54, and should be done in this later unit. This was done to add storage space for the 60mm mortar ammo.

Unit 630 Merkava Mk 1 This is the obsolete tank unit for reserve companies. Date should be extended to 2014(future is currently unsure). Main gun ammo reduce to 54. In reality some of these received TI, but this is not an issue, because at the point of getting TI, along with other improvements over the years, they are basically Merkava Mk2b.

Units 058 Merkava Mk 2 Should have TI(lol one got missed huh?). Ammo load should be 54 for main.

Unit 059 and 060 Merkava Mk2b I think in the name of uniformity with earlier tank variants, should be Renamed Merkava Mk2B. Ammo load should be 54. FCS should be 38(or what ever you guys choose to give the tanks with Nahal Oz- as you recall, the Magach 6M, Magach 7, Shot Brak Or and the Merk 2b all have the same system- superior to the one in Merk 1 but inferior to the one in Magach 6B Gal). 060 dates need to be extended to 2014(current status- will possibly be replaced by Mk 4 this year).

Unit 631 Merkava Mk2b- this should have a start date around 1988 as well.

An interesting Merkava variant that isn't in the game is Merkava Mk2B Kasag/Batash/Dalet. This is the Mk2b with applique passive and NERA(non explosive reactive armor) suit.

This package can be seen in the pics on this thread:
http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/sho...d.php?t=156008

*Naturally I have no idea what kind of armor values this justifies(classified), but certainly an increase of 15-20% is warranted for the turret sides. Probably a major hike in turret top protection. A moderate increase in hull front and sides.
*The added weight is hardly offset by the engine tweaking(the tanks managed 1,000 horses after some modifications, but not all tanks received these modifications) so these tanks are even slower than the already lazy Mk2B.
*The load out for these tanks should be high on HE and HEAT rather than AP, as they are rotated between units serving in Gaza and Lebanon.
*This probably would need an icon, the turret shape is quite different as you can see in the pics.
*Does not need an obsolete unit, start date should be 9/1997 and end date 2014 for now.
*As for naming, the most common term used by tankers was Merkava 2B KASAG(Kav Sagol=Purple Line: a reference to the border with Lebanon). However the terms Merkava 2B Batash and Merkava Mk2D (Dalet) are also correct, the first being used sometimes by tankers and the second being the official designation of the tank.


This tank would be specifically relevant to Lebanon and Gaza scenarios in the late 1990s to today.
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  #16  
Old September 15th, 2013, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

Merkava 3

My knowledge on these is more limited. However I do have some ideas as to changes that should be made.

Unit 061, 062, 063 Merkava Mk3 Three units with the only difference being radio and ammo load out. 061 has 91 radio and 062+063 have 92. 062 and 063 differ only by their ammo loads. In any case all ammo loads are wrong. the correct number is 46 for the main gun and not 50. I suggest keeping 062 and 063 and getting rid of 061. Date for these should be 5/1990-1/1997(When 188th, the only standing MK3 brigade was converted to BAZ).
Theoretically the FCS should be lowered to match what I suggested for the Merk 2b and others. However this is not a very good idea in my eyes, as the Mk3 did use the same computer as Mk2b, but had far better turret controls and optics allowing better hits(especially on the move and long range).


Unit 632 Merkava Mk 3 ammo for main should be reduced to 46. Dates should be changed to start 1992-3 and end 2020.

Units 064, 065 Merkava Mk3 Baz as mentioned, ammo load should be reduced to 54. The armor should be the same as units 061-063, for reasons mentioned below. Icon should be like 061-063, for reasons mentioned below.

This is where this gets a little complicated. The best I could figure is that there are 3 different Baz sub-variants:
*Mk3 Baz is just the Mk3 with Baz(hence my reservations about the armor rates and icons for 064 and 065)
*Mk3 Baz KASAG is MK3 Baz with applique armor(like the Mk2B KASAG previously described here).
*Mk 3D Baz- better base armor,applique armor.

I am not sure what should be done, as this will consume alot of unit space. If I have to recommend any action, its the addition of only the Mk3D Baz. The armor used for it is similar to the Mk4 armor(in materials), and it is a significant variant(currently 1/3rd of the standing tank fleet).

My suggestion on how to add the Mk3D Baz:
*Simply copy the CURRENT 064/065 units. They have the correct icon and upped armor compared to the vanilla Mk3.
*Make the changes to 064-065 as i suggested, making them a true representation of the original Mk3 Baz.
*As all current standing Mk3 units have Mk3Ds, the split in dates should probably be-
Mk3 Baz from 1997 to 2002 and Mk3D from 2001 to 2020.

It's a mess I know

To make things worse we need an obsolete tank unit for 064+065 Mk3 Baz(but not for Mk3D, those are all in standing units AFAIK) with dates 1999-2020. I think we should probably skip the different ammo loads considering the already horrid expense in unit space.

Unit 066 Merkava 3 Lahat Honestly I still can't find any open source proof this is in service. Non the less ammo load should be reduced further 40 for the main gun to make room for 6 LAHAT missiles in their cases.

I originally planned to do the Mk4 in this post as well but I feel like I went down the rabbit hole.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

@Don
Also at this point as this clearly becoming a long undertaking(as expected) is there anything in the format of my posts that needs changing? I have looked forward on the OOB. There are a few dozen things more...Some are minor and major date issues(like decades off), some are units that never existed in the IDF, etc. So this is a long ordeal I just want to make sure it will be easy for you to use this thread....

Amit.
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  #18  
Old September 15th, 2013, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

No, it doesn't seem so, I've only just been looking them over quickly before putting them on the list but all in all it's looks good

Don
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Old September 29th, 2013, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

THE LAST TANK

Okey now we get into the Merkava 4...I am aware that alot of work has been done by others here.

I do have some ideas though, here they are:

Units 067 and 068 Merkava Mk 4

Ammo load should be 50 for main gun.

Unit 069 Merkava Mk4b
* AFAIK and according to most hebrew sources this should be named Merkava Mk4M (again Meshupar=Improved).
*More importantly, the changes made to fit the LAHAT have screwed up the weapons on this unit. The coaxial on Merkava 4, as with all IDF tanks, is the 7.62mm FN-MAG/M240. The 12.7mm is an optional coaxial. If we must choose one, I would go with the real, internal coaxial(this is true for unit 066 as well, I missed it).
*ammo load aside from the LAHAT should be increased to 44 total.
*I think that a identical unit without the LAHAT should be made. but this is just my opinion. To allow the use of Merk 4 with CIWS but no LAHAT.

Two Mk4 units are currently missing:
* Merkava Mk4TWMP
*Obsolete tank unit for Mk4. Availability should be from ~2006 all the way to 2020.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: IDF OOB project.

APCs

Unit 081 M3 Halftrack This should be around untill the early 1990s. I Saw these in a reserve unit with my own very young but at that time still sharp eyes when I was 3 or 4...So 1992~ they were still around. Suggest new end date of 1993.

Unit 572 M3 Halftrack Same goes for this.

Unit 083 Bardelass This is the vanilla M113, and still exists(sadly enough for our brave mech infantry) to this day in some standing and reserve units. End date should be 2020 really, we have so many we will never rid of them.

Unit 097 Namer MICV RWS This is still not in service AFAIK, and I don't see it happening anytime soon. Specifically the 30mm and Spike...This just is not how IDF infantry like to roll, they would need serious boosts to the ordnance platoons in their battalions as well as a major increase in time spent training with AFVs(they hate AFVs). For the foreseeable future IDF infantry will have nothing larger than the 12.7mm/40mm AGL on its RWS...



That is it for today. See you soon
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