Core Assault

[RERomine]

Since the AI builds it's force based on the total my core and support points, times a battle multiplier, I'm going to try to assault on a 100x100 map with almost exclusively my core force. The only support units I purchased was 10 scouts.

My core force plus the 10 scouts is about 6000 points (my core is very experienced ). If I understand the multiplier correctly, I should be facing a defense force of about 2000 points since I believe the battle multiplier is 1/3 in this case. I passed on over 4800 support points and should have deprived the AI of at least 1600 points. The overall plan is to make it difficult for the AI to defend an entire 100 hex front and the objectives effectively with just 2000.

Has anyone tried that before and does it make sense what I'm trying?

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Shouldn't AI be supposed to get more points than you?

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Shouldn't AI be supposed to get more points than you?

Not in this case. I'm assaulting and the AI is defending.

While I'm not sure, I believe the battle multipliers for the AI are 3 for when it ASSAULTS, 2 for when it ADVANCES, 1 for MEETING ENGAGEMENTS, 1/2 for when it DELAYS and 1/3 for when it DEFENDS. I'm not sure where I picked up those numbers, but I remember them from somewhere.

[DRG]

You numbers are wrong but sometimes it's better to discover things for yourself.


If you want to know exactly what the AI gets in various battle types simple. Follow these steps

1- set the human player to 1000 points, the AI to XXX

2- set human to computer player, purchase and deploy then set the AI to Computer player and deploy but HUMAN purchase

3- set the first battle to a P2 assault on P1 and when the P2 ( AI ) purchase screen appears look at the number of points it gets and add that to the number of points it's already spent on the HQ then compare that number to the 1000 points the P1 player gets and you have your ratio.

4- repeat with all the other battle types

Don

[RERomine]

The assault/defend multipliers are off some. The others seem good.

The overall idea of a core assault does work, but has one major drawback, no cannon fodder. No matter how you attack, there will be casualties. Without support units, all the casualties are in my core. With support units, I can pin down enemy units with my support units while my core maneuvers against them. This way, the support units take most of the casualties.

On the positive side, the core assault did allow me to get my core to the enemy rear with the lose of one half track and a squad due to artillery at the wire line and a few scouts. I was too slow clearing the wire. Once contact was made, for some bizarre reason, some AI units dashed off to the West away from my units. There was nothing out there. The casualties I took in my core were to units that either couldn't move or a few infantry units. I might have to try taking a company of support units to act more like shock troops when I try this again.

[Charles22]

ReRomine: Please excuse me for digging this somewhat old thread up, but your original post caught my interest.

As you know, youu and I have been talking about cores and experience a lot, and I would like to know something. Please take a few of your more experienced units if you would, and tell us what they now cost. Then compare what the encyclopedia says their 70exp (I think that's it) cost is.

Why I ask is that I'm curious how much my smaller core will cost then. You realize, of course, that the less units you have, with greater exsperience, the greater the chances of seeing larger hordes from the AI, because you are increasing core costs, without adding units. The greater sized force you have, something like yours, makes the AI hit the ceiling of units pretty easily, such that your hordes faced might be more expensive hordes, but far less in numbers.

[RERomine]

Charles, here are a few examples of what you are asking for:

One SS Infantry squad with EXP=111, COST=39. At EXP=70, COST=24
One Tiger I with EXP=134, COST=293. At EXP=70, COST=159
One SdKfz 251/17 with EXP=100, COST=48. At EXP=70, COST=32

That last one is a good measure since by your experience going from 70 to 100, the cost increases by 50%.

Hitting the unit ceiling really depends on who you are fighting and when you are fighting them. The one battle I described where I was running out of AP ammo was one of those where I think the AI came close to the unit ceiling. It was mid 1942 against the British. My core plus support points was probably close to 9,000, meaning the AI force had roughly 18,000 points to use. One wouldn't expect them to come close to the ceiling here, but they really didn't have or didn't choose to use their more expensive armor.

Armor is a way to use up lots of points, but I saw scads of cheap tanks with 2pdr guns. There were others, but I don't remember all the details. Hitting the ceiling becomes more likely if your core plus support points go over 10,000. The AI may have expensive armor available, but the unit selection routine isn't going to allow it to take 4 companies of King Tigers, for example. It tries to be more rational in it's unit selection. Andy has explained this in another thread around here somewhere.

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by RERomine

Charles, here are a few examples of what you are asking for:

One SS Infantry squad with EXP=111, COST=39. At EXP=70, COST=24
One Tiger I with EXP=134, COST=293. At EXP=70, COST=159
One SdKfz 251/17 with EXP=100, COST=48. At EXP=70, COST=32

That last one is a good measure since by your experience going from 70 to 100, the cost increases by 50%.

Hitting the unit ceiling really depends on who you are fighting and when you are fighting them. The one battle I described where I was running out of AP ammo was one of those where I think the AI came close to the unit ceiling. It was mid 1942 against the British. My core plus support points was probably close to 9,000, meaning the AI force had roughly 18,000 points to use. One wouldn't expect them to come close to the ceiling here, but they really didn't have or didn't choose to use their more expensive armor.

Armor is a way to use up lots of points, but I saw scads of cheap tanks with 2pdr guns. There were others, but I don't remember all the details. Hitting the ceiling becomes more likely if your core plus support points go over 10,000. The AI may have expensive armor available, but the unit selection routine isn't going to allow it to take 4 companies of King Tigers, for example. It tries to be more rational in it's unit selection. Andy has explained this in another thread around here somewhere.

Thanks, it's almost precisely what I was expecting, a 50% increase of cost at the 100 exp level.

No, no, no, no. I wasn't referring to cost ceiling for the AI, but to unit ceiling. It may hit the 500 mark. IOW, your force is so large that in terms of units he may not be able to attack you with an many cheap units as he might otherwise if you had s smaller force. I expect, since I started out only 300pts above the default long campaign amount that I won't have this problem unless my core should grow considerably beyond it's size, but you OTOH....

Oh yeah I saw Andy talk about it, but you don't realize the seriousness of what I'm saying. You said, that a mere mid-42 brought you 9000, and 10000 is the problem zone? If you play very well, the increased exp alone will get you quite a bit closer there, barring that you haven't even added to the core. When was the last time you checked, because we know what a big support man you are. I wouldn't dream of using all of support on those larger point missions, but I bet you do. The allowed support total keeps going up as your core keeps going up too.
Now I might normally desire the AI pick more expensive units to fit a sclose as possible to the points he's allowed, but, nonethelees, the more the total comes up, the less his ratio of units to yours is possible. There's a limit for that somewhere, to where numbers become more and more negligible. On efo two things happens when bad things happen. Either the Ai comes far short of the points used, thereby excessive devotion to numbers, or he hits having to debilitate any numbers attack to fill our the total available.

As well, I had mentioned before the propensity for some if not all of the SP's (Steel Panthers) to pick excessive arti when confronted with excessive points (that may be the fix I was referring to). IOW, trying to fill out the points with the most expensive units. If it winSPWW2 was doing that at any time, your camapigns may be infested with that. In a sense, assuming I'm correct about this arti thing, the buying excessive arti wasn't a bug necessarily, but it was wise to change it if it could be. I don't have enough points yet to draw any excessive arti the AI may pick, but you're a candidate if anybody is. Playing the USSR can hit 500 units if the AI even wants to just moderately go hordes on you.

Doesn't it strike you just a little bit peculiar the the following doesn't add up. Firstly I'm assuming you're hitting 300 units often enough, but let's just say I'm right about that to go the direction I'm going. you know how the USSR, especiallt the non-elite forces in comparison to you are much cheaper. Now if you're getting like 300 units, while he can 2.5X you possibly on points (or is it 2X? - how wimpy) he can't do it in units anymore, and his units are MUCH cheaper than yours. So a fixed arti or not, where is he not only going to fill the points otherwise, or where my main point goes, ever be able to double (or better) you in units? Generally, the USSR often excepting because of radical cheapness, when you face an opponent with a 2X advantage it generally goes without saying that you're probably down in numbers that badly too, but not when the limits are 300 and 500.

Play with 250 and you can be at best doubled in numbers. IOW, the higher amount of numbers you play with, higher costs often making that even more crucial, the more impossible hording you is. A 100 unit group, something like mine, can't be more than 5X'ed in terms of hordes. 50 unit groups can be 10X'ed. Maybe I'm way off kilter on how many units you have had, but it's simple math; I think I explained it well enough. I might not think horde attacks are necessarily terribly successful, or I may, but I personally don't like the idea of their being vitually eliminated just by sheer virtue of my unit count being so high it cannot happen. This issue is even more important, if you really want something of the flavor of the war, because when facing the USSR, you know they often were horde attacking.

What say ye?