Guide: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?

[ano]

Any nation with decent recruitable everywhere sacreds will be able to expand really fast if it takes a double-bless. The question was how to expand effectively without super bless.
Btw, tigers even with minor bless are at least no worse for expansion than elephants and their upkeep won't ruin your day. I'm not a bandar player but I agree with Kuritza that it'll be very hard to bring this theory from paper to real world. Many reasons for that..
One option that seems rather viable is careful diversifying into blood. Any nation can go for it but while any other nation needs 50 slaves to get a B1 hunter, monkeys need 50 slaves to get a B3 Dakini who is much better than just a hunter. I believe that BL can be quite powerful combining awake SC Deva pretender with most of what Baalz wrote. But without it you'll need lots of luck to do well with monkeys.

[Baalz]

Well, I don't think Bandar Log is particularly vulnerable to an early attack. As Hoo points out elephants go a long way towards bringing Bandar Log into the 'Hmmm, is there an easier target?' category for early rushes, and when you throw in all the astral mages - ethereal elephants backed up by paralyze will put a good amount of hurt on most things that might rush you. Certainly if you're talking worse case scenario from a first class rusher, then yeah Bandar Log along with just about anybody is gonna have some trouble, and an awake combat pretender isn't gonna really help too much. Heck, in other contexts I've had to argue my guide thesis against potential elephant rushes and there's no reason at all that Bandar Log can't pull off a first class elephant rush, though I don't really focus on that in this guide because it's not really my style. Regardless of if you plan on rushing, anybody who can't turn elephants into a very brisk expansion against indies needs to practice a bit more with them.

To those of you very skeptical about Bandar Log's effectiveness, I ask you to look again at my thesis. The core of it is that Bandar Log is difficult to play, and it's not surprising that they often don't fare well. They have the tools to be a first rate power early, middle, and late game but it's not as obvious how to leverage them as, say, triple blessing some good sacreds and smashing the crap out of anything that shows up. I firmly don't believe you have to be lucky to do well with Bandar Log, though of course any nation is at the mercy of their neighbors ganging up on them or finding some high population indies to conquer.

Now, as to the questions about taking a rainbow pretender, I think most people discount the tactical advantage that an awake rainbow pretender gives you in an early rush situation. Fighting back an early rush is generally the game of trying to stall the aggressor long enough for you to research up to a critical spell or two. With an awake rainbow pretender researching you'll get more research done in the first few turns than you'd otherwise be able to do in the first year. Being able to meet an early rush (which by nature must be done by a small force) with mind burns, teleports and paralyzes can certainly be at least as effective as a poorly equipped combat pretender. Additionally, the rainbow pretender obviously gives you access to spells which your national mages can't cast, so you gain access to whatever the best low level spell in the game is to counter whatever is giving you pain. Having access to that one perfect spell is often the most effective thing you could possibly do. It's a bit disingenuous to say using your pretender to cast flaming arrows is a losing proposition, think about it this way: how many pivotal battles changed from a high casualty loss into a overwhelming victory does it take to make those design points worth it? My opinion is that number is one. This is not a tactic that you're going to leverage on your raiders, it's something you're gonna use in a "break this glass in case of emergency" type of situation. I have personally used it - with Kalaisian stealthy Atavis to surprise an opponent trying to break the siege on his capital and I fell in love with its potential. In any game there will be a few pivotal battles which you spend the rest of the time maneuvering yourself into a good position for, having a rainbow pretender means you can always have the spell that will make a difference - whether that's flaming arrows or darkness or wrathful skies. You can go ahead and consider it a losing proposition, I'll take the overwhelming victories that pivotal spells bring me in pivotal battles. In addition, a rainbow pretender will get you lots of gems - the lifeblood of Bandar. Many different types of summons use different gem types, and as I point out you can always alchemize into astral so every gem is very useful. I know plenty of people will take an awake combat pretender under any circumstances and disagree with my opinion on this, but I often take rainbows or imprisoned pretenders and do well enough.

In response to the comments which are essentially "this would never work in practice", everything I list here I've used effectively - at bare minimum against the AI and mostly against people in MP games. I've defeated many people as Kalasia and Bandar Log (haven't played Patala in MP yet), and am set to win a MP game with Bandar that I'm currently in. Certainly a good player might counter any tactic, but everything here is viable in a MP game if deployed in the right situation. Nothing is unstoppable, but nobody engaging a properly played Bandar Log could describe them as anything other than powerful.

I disagree that Asparas should be avoided, they are perfect for exactly what I suggested - shoring up Markatas. If you're fighting forces with no ranged weapons (or if you lay down arrow fend) their awe + high defense gives them a surprising survivability (particularly if you add in something with a fear effect for support) for their cost while their standard effect removes the real weakness of the monkeys. Hint: troops with no range or using arrow fend is exactly when you want to be deploying your markatas anyway. If you're using destruction/iron bane already their kick is plenty effective - you can certainly use them by themselves with a bit of good mage support. True, gandaharvas can do the same thing better, but you can't really complain that Bandar has a hard time coming up with the gems they need, then refuse to use anything but the top shelf summons. Everything has an opportunity cost, once you spend more than "good enough" you're giving up more than you should in some other vector.

As to specific pretenders and scales, I try to avoid suggesting a specific build in my guides if possible, and leave as much up to your preference as possible while meeting the requirements for the strategies I suggest. Within what I suggest here you could go with the minimal paths I suggest and still get excellent scales (with sloth and heat), but any extra magic you take will be useful and you can go with straight 4's in every path by taking weak-but-not-crippling scales (you don't need a strong dominion score). Order is of course nice, magic 1 is usually a good idea for any nation, I generally lean towards death scales when none of your mages are old and you're unlikely to run into supply issues (lots of nature mages). My own preference is for the enchantress for the extra pearls, but you can't really go wrong with any of the rainbow chasises, so pick whichever one most appeals to you. You could certainly even go with something like a ghost king or master lich if the human pretenders don't appeal to you, though remember....opportunity costs.

Thanks for pointing out the Dakini Ano, I ment to mention them and forgot. Bandar Log and MA Mictlan are the only two non blood nations who can summon cost effective blood hunters. *particularly* if you should happen to find a blood magic bonus site while site searching with your pretender. Also, searching with a good rainbow mage obviously maximizes your opportunity of finding an indy mage who can bloodhunt.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by ano

I didn't get it. Why don't Siddhas need lab for teleporting?
Did you mean mapmove 10?

The Siddha mapmove 10 is IIRC like the mapmove 10 some horrors get - it can move multiple underwater provinces if it has water breathing, for instance. It's sort of like a range-10 teleport spell in behaviour (apart from the bit where it happens in the movement phase instead of the magic phase).

PS: Baalz, can I link from my Lanka guide to this one? You explain what to do with monkey troops better than I can.

[hoo]

Originally Posted by Baalz

I disagree that Asparas should be avoided, they are perfect for exactly what I suggested - shoring up Markatas. True, gandaharvas can do the same thing better, but you can't really complain that Bandar has a hard time coming up with the gems they need, then refuse to use anything but the top shelf summons. Everything has an opportunity cost, once you spend more than "good enough" you're giving up more than you should in some other vector.

Doh, I'm completely wrong on Asparas and apologize. Dang. Sorry about that. at least I got I knew there was a 3 multiple in there.

Good points on the rainbow pretenders. I think earth 4 is still pretty key b/c the Gandhas rack up a lot of fatigue attacking twice. I've made an Enchantress rainbow as well but not in a real cutthroat MP game and had some success. I wish the BL had access to the archdruid which would be perfect for a stealth leader for the atavis plus nature gems. I think he'd be a no-brainer, but alas it's not to be.

3 other tidbits:

1) BL has the best scout in the game I believe (markata +50 stealth, 20 gold). I think BL probably has the best scouting capabilities for anyone in the game (easy access to astral projection/stone sphere too). So you should be able to identify weak pts for attack/research.
2) BL does pretty well against SCs at a pretty early age due to the easy curse/soul slay/horror mark. Lot of these spells dovetail nicely with the research to get celestial music.
3) While most discussion has been on conjurations and markatas, BL can opt for an alteration heavy start with good success.

[JimMorrison]

Well, with 1 Sloth you're starting with 68 resources, at 2 Sloth you start with 56 resources, and at 3 Sloth you start with a whopping 44 resources.

Let me know when you hit 160.

[Tichy]

Apsaras are 3 for 3 gems, so 1 gem a piece.

[Hadrian_II]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Well, with 1 Sloth you're starting with 68 resources, at 2 Sloth you start with 56 resources, and at 3 Sloth you start with a whopping 44 resources.

Let me know when you hit 160.

After you have enough adjacent provinces to the capital

[Baalz]

Asparas are 3 for 3, Gandhavas are 6 for 18...so they're 3 times as expensive. Quite a difference, particularly as Asparas are generally used in conjunction with other troops, while gandharvas are a big whackin stick nobody else can keep up with so you need to have critical mass of them. Sticking 9 Asparas in to give your markatas a spine is almost an order of magnitude cheaper than summoning 18 gandharvas to smash straight into your opponent's face.

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

PS: Baalz, can I link from my Lanka guide to this one? You explain what to do with monkey troops better than I can.

Yes, of course.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Hadrian_II

After you have enough adjacent provinces to the capital

Hey I'm just saying. I'm in a game right now without Sloth at all, and with all 5 adjacent territories, my cap gets a whopping 126 resources. I'm just so glad I'm not playing a nation that is dependent on capital only troops in any way.

Sloth kind of complicates your start when you are using elephants, more so than other strategies. Even when you hit 2 Sloth, you can only get 2 elephants out. You can have 5 ready to go on turn 3, but waiting until turn 3 is painful.

I was having a lot of fun with Bandar Log doing the W9/S9 bless (cheapest double bless they can get), but I expanded with the tigers, as 5 blessed tigers could take almost any indies without a single loss. But, I have become convinced that W9 isn't really the trick for these guys in the mid-late game. I do still think that it's a good idea to look long term at the White Ones as being worthy of a pretty good bless though. The jury is still out. :P And obviously if I, or someone else develops an overarching strategy for BL that is competitive with Baalz' build, it doesn't invalidate any of that, it's all down to playstyle.