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  #1  
Old July 26th, 2009, 01:11 PM
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SGTGunn SGTGunn is offline
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Default SdKfz 222 Turret Question

From photos I have seen, the SdKfz 222's 2cm Kwk 30 could be used for extreme high angle fire - did this mean it had an AA capability? The Kwk 30 & 38 were based on the Flak 30 & 38 and used the same ammo type, so it seems reasonable.

Why else the high angle mounting?

Thanks,

Adrian
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Old July 26th, 2009, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGTGunn View Post
From photos I have seen, the SdKfz 222's 2cm Kwk 30 could be used for extreme high angle fire - did this mean it had an AA capability? The Kwk 30 & 38 were based on the Flak 30 & 38 and used the same ammo type, so it seems reasonable.

Why else the high angle mounting?

Thanks,

Adrian
Well - it already is class 19 Auto-cannon, so it can shoot at helos, even if pinned. So useful if the Allied player brings a Hoverfly to the table.

You are free to make it a weapon class 4 FLAK weapon if you so desire - then it will be unavailable to fire if pinned, just like the various FLAK-wagons...

Andy

Andy
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Old July 26th, 2009, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Ok! I wasn't aware that flak weapons couldn't fire while pinned - that's good to know! Do you happen to know if the mounting designed with the intent that it could be used as an AA weapon? Or if the Germans actually employed it as such?

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Adrian
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Old July 26th, 2009, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGTGunn View Post
Ok! I wasn't aware that flak weapons couldn't fire while pinned - that's good to know! Do you happen to know if the mounting designed with the intent that it could be used as an AA weapon? Or if the Germans actually employed it as such?

Thanks,

Adrian
No - it was not used or conceived as an AAA weapon, even supplementary. It is realy more like the modern RARDEN cannon - a small amount of ready ammo which was used mainly in the self-loading mode, with an option to roll off a single auto burst if necessary.

The last thing you probably want is one of your recce vehicles randomly popping off at planes flying by - would give away your positions and/or scouting intentions to a human opponent?.

The high elevation would be useful fighting in close terrain to fire upwards, perhaps. Similar to Post-war Russian use of ZSU-23-4 to clear the top floors of multi-story buildings of Chechen fighters. But later versions of the 222 usually had an anti hand-grenade screen fitted, so likely they would be too vulnerable in towns etc with the original open top turret. And SP does not have the concept of floors in towns either.

Andy
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Old July 28th, 2009, 06:16 AM

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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Heres something contradictory from
http://www.rodenplant.com/HTML/703.htm
"After the Hawker Typhoon fighter was added to the R.A.F.'s inventory the Panzerwaffe endured heavy casualties and German troop movements became complicated. As the Typhoon was armed with 4 cannons and 8 rockets the German Military Command put out a requirement that a new armored car, intended to replace the out-of-date Sd.Kfz 231 (8 - Rad) and Sd.Kfz 232 (8 - Rad), should be able to resist air attacks.
...
Installed the same way in the Sd.Kfz 222 and the Sd.Kfz 250/9
...
Serial production of the Sd.Kfz 234/1 started in June 1944 and it was an opportune time, as the Allied Air forces dominated on the Western Front and the air raids of British and American ground attack aircraft were continuous.
Most of the 200 Sd.Kfz 234/1 produced up to the beginning of 1945 were sent to the Western Front"

Note also the large ammo loadout for the vehicle plenty of rounds for long bursts at aircraft.
Perhaps some players might like their recon elements to be able to 'resist' air attacks?
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Old July 28th, 2009, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Odd you didn't include

Quote:

Nevertheless, as the Sd.Kfz 234/1 (as the new car was classified) was mainly designed for reconnaissance, .....
but then it tends to not support the argument we should be treating this as a combination recce car and Flakwagon

or on another site

Quote:

Armored cars' role was to protect the crew from small arms fire during reconnaissance missions, not engaging with enemy.

Using high explosive ammo the 20 mm autocannon was highly effective against infantry and unarmoured vehicles. Great success was also achieved by replacing the regular armour-piercing explosive ammunition with an early version of APDS, but this ammunition was in chronically short supply
no mention anywhere of those vehicle being used seriously for AA except on that model website and then only that a "requirement" of their design was AA capabilty. I'm sure if we dig into every vehicles "requirments" when it went to the drawing board we'd find things it never was really used for in reality

But then this is typical of the posts you make looking for any exception to prove your point

98K's undoubtedly were used to shoot at aircraft . There is a photo of a British infantryman pointing his Enfield skyward at Dunkirk and firing at diving Stukas and there's a story from Pearl Harbour about a sailor firing a rifle at a Japanese aircraft and detonating the bomb it was carrying. Shall we include rifles as AA capable as well ?

Don
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Old August 9th, 2009, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGTGunn View Post
From photos I have seen, the SdKfz 222's 2cm Kwk 30 could be used for extreme high angle fire - did this mean it had an AA capability? The Kwk 30 & 38 were based on the Flak 30 & 38 and used the same ammo type, so it seems reasonable.

Why else the high angle mounting?
The Sdkfz 222 turret and gun mount was specifically designed to allow the vehicle to engage flying targets (good old Chamberlain & Doyle: "Encyclopedia of German tanks....." says so on p. 192). That is the reason for the Hängelafette gun mount and it s 87 degree elevation as opposed to 2cm gun mounts in the SdKfz 231, Panzer II etc.

AFAIK it was the same deal with the SdKfz 234/1 and 250/9.

AFAIK they used the same 10-round magazines as the gun used normally, so clearly, it wasn't used to sweep the skies empty of allied Jabos, but rather an attempt at given the recce troops something to shot with if hiding wasn't succesfull or possible.

cbo
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

.....and if we gave those vehicles "Flak" capability they would not, as Andy noted, fire if pinned which severly handicaps them in their primary mission which is Recce and dealing with enemy ground forces when running away isn't an option.

Don
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  #9  
Old August 11th, 2009, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: SdKfz 222 Turret Question

I cant see where this is going the above point is a very valid one & as stated the AA capability is to give it some means of last ditch defence not for sweeping the skys. Given the fact its WW2 the chances of it actualy hitting anything are virtualy zero so if its sitting still in woods like it should the jigs up its given its self away. Okay if your winning & using it for moping up its lost that ability & remote chance of hitting something, but its probably moving so wont fire anyway. The only time I could see as useful is if you are using as cannon fodder to save more expensive stuff but then you are arguing for a correct gun mount & using the unit unrealisticly.
Lets face it in WW2 game air is a great inteligence gatherer I may fly a plane over with weapons off so it can find its targets for the next pass & its just said over here. Once you enter the radar controled/SAM era of MBT this is however a very unheallthy tactic hence stand off attacks become the best form of attack & little inteligence is gathered.
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