Machaka screwed more than ever ?

[secretperson]

In regards to my last post, I'd like to add somewhat of a warning about the semi-immortal Black Sorcerers- when they "die" (change into spider form) their slots will also change temporarily. The spider seems to have both misc slots but you will lose the other items in the other slots. So just remember to swap them out when they are at 1 hp and put them back on next turn.

As a side note- I'd suspect this 2 form behavior also protects against seeking arrows and various other spells like that. However, I am only speculating and have not tested this.

[NTJedi]

secretperson said:
Interestingly enough Black Sorcerers will never die with a fever fetish on them. This goes along nicely with the fact that most of them can cast Flame Arrows in conjunction with Phoenix power.

I'd rather place the fetish on a scout and have him pass the gems to the mage... no reason for my mages in battle to be picking up random afflictions from disease like chestwound or feeblemind.

Also why place the fetish on a black sorceror when it can be placed on a sorceress who's cheaper and would also not die.

[dirtywick]

secretperson said:
In regards to my last post, I'd like to add somewhat of a warning about the semi-immortal Black Sorcerers- when they "die" (change into spider form) their slots will also change temporarily. The spider seems to have both misc slots but you will lose the other items in the other slots. So just remember to swap them out when they are at 1 hp and put them back on next turn.

As a side note- I'd suspect this 2 form behavior also protects against seeking arrows and various other spells like that. However, I am only speculating and have not tested this.

Sounds like a bug to me.

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't take advantage of it, but if it's fixed I'd probably have a back up plan. Just saying.

[JimMorrison]

Well if you're fetishing, you're not too likely to have other gear sitting around on them, I wouldn't put a fetish on someone I was going to boost for forging/summons/globals. And I don't think I'd take them to combat.....

I was just checking them out, they have no national spells at all? That's a bummer.

[secretperson]

Sorceresses would work as well since they have spider form too.

Yeah, the no national summons is kinda a bummer. But they have super easy access to fire arrows plus with the fetish trick it makes having those gems available even that much easier.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well.... the Spider Lord has a second form and is available everywhere. For 100 gold, you have nearly forty hitpoints of fever fetish.

The fact that you've got the ear of the lord for spying (with a secondary effect of stealth preaching), the ear of the lord who can patrol as well as 15 humans for a third of the cost, and a pretty well equipped although capital only assasin doesn't hurt.

And with access to the Mother of Serpents, healing, I suppose you could rescue your investment if you really wanted to, but I'm not sure this nation really cries for healing.

These ape heroes are kinda lame. Are they multi-heros at least, of do they have any use aside from free monkey-spawn chaff?

Abasi? I don't see his use as a hero, but his description is very amusing.

edit: and on the spider kings... It's entirely possible to not expand outside of your starting province and end year three with 115 fire gems. With some actual effort, a cheap fort, and some witch-doctor manual site searching... Hell. If 100 gold really matter, you can heal the spiders with the Mother of Serpents. You only have to check once a year to keep the spider alive.

edit: and ears of the lord causing unrest while carrying bane venom charms in an enemy fortress might be fun and hard to counter. Especially with a couple assasins to move in later. Though of course, death isn't specially easy for this nation to bring in gems for. Not impossible..

edit: and I just realized what to do with my wasted earth gem income: forge dwarven hammer or two, really churn out fever fetish.

[Tyrant]

Do not underestimate spider knights. I faced Machaka under the command of the redoubtable Hadrian II awhile back and he fielded them in large numbers- like 60-120 at a time IIRC, and they were pretty awesome. Webs are a one-size-fits-all answer to a great many tactical problems. I was playing MA Man and it might have been easier if i'd have had astral mages or Charm i admit, but i was still very very impressed.

My Machaka pet peeves are low stealth on the assassin, death too low to make a skull hat, and no blood. It seems like blood goes with the spider/jungle theme.

I agree that the lack of death income is a pain and that the transforming mages should have long lifespans.

[Wick]

I was going to say that while a Bane Spider costs twice what he should at least his stealth was fixed, but I see that relatively it wasn't.

Edi, here's a clump of DB fixes (this is easy if you sort by the assassin column first):
443 Star Child is listed as Stealth 5, is actually 15.
585 Guild Master is listed as Stealth 5, is actually 25.
629 Stalker is listed as Stealth 20, is actually 40.
877 Bane Spider is listed as Stealth 5, is actually 10.
1436 Mujina is listed as Stealth 10, is actually 30.
1558 Tlahuelpuchi is listed as Stealth 0, is actually 15.
1744 Samanishada is listed as Stealth 10, is actually 20.
1879 Serpent Assassin is listed as Stealth 5, is actually 20.

Bug:
863 Apostatic Warrior really is stealth 0, probably should be 15 or 20 if he's an "able assassin".

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

How well armored are those heavily stealthed units?

Anyways, IMO able assassins doen't necessarily equate high stealth, but means of getting the job done. If you think of the bane spider as a sort of mafia hitman, rather than a stubtle type, it makes a bit of sense.

The stealth can be a problem, but I find assassins work best as a defensive tool, anyways. Since patrolling is such an easy counter. An invading army doesn't have the time or pd to patrol, and after an assasination is most vulnerable to counterattack. And then, you could easily cause enough unrest with your priest to prevent any patrols from being effective, making it difficult for them to take and hold any territory or lines of reinforcement.

A fire pearl does a lot for this guy, as well as being easy to forge if you're fetishing. Specifically in reducing the number of shield hits and carving through chaff. I don't find this guy's stealth a problem, just his magic resistance. Strength boosters are nice as well, and easily forgable, but earth isn't as nearly free as fire, though still easier to come by then death gems.

It is nice that they needn't worry about ethereal units either.

Not that assassins are reliable or survive much, but it is nice to note that when the random Intor Vadul is sieging your capital, a Bane Spider with a fire pearl and lycanthropo's amulet can send him fleeing to his death at 16 hitpoints, even if your Bane Spider barely survives with one measly hitpoint just before,

Anyways, my big concern with them isn't 20 stealth, its a miserable 10 MR, which turns out to be their biggest weakness, very hard to counter with your national paths or without a lead shield. A lucky mage can be their undoing, or a few mandragora, but at least they aren't stalled by a few dispossed spirits.

PS. Or sleep or whatever... point is, with 10 MR, even a randomly casting mage has a good chance of ending that battle.

[Edi]

Has anyone tried using a bane spider with a bunch of spider warriors set to guard commander? It'd be interesting to see if they join in on the assassination attempt.

The reason the bane spider also has less stealth than other assassins is that he has leadership. Commanders that have stealth confer the same stealth bonus to all stealth units under their command (so for example a Vanherse with stealth(25) gives all those stealth(0) bakemono archers +25 stealth.