.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $8.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $6.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT > Mods
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #321  
Old April 3rd, 2016, 09:17 PM
RecruitMonty's Avatar

RecruitMonty RecruitMonty is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mainly Germany (München)
Posts: 824
Thanks: 178
Thanked 105 Times in 65 Posts
RecruitMonty is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSheppard View Post
Then there's the FA 283 an apparent jet powered gyrodyne, which could be used as the basis for a series of German light utility/attack helicopters in the 1960s.
I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.

The flight characteristics would be peculiar as well I imagine.
__________________
"Wir Deutschen sollten die Wahrheit auch dann ertragen lernen, wenn sie für uns günstig ist."
Reply With Quote
  #322  
Old April 5th, 2016, 04:19 PM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 864
Thanks: 64
Thanked 182 Times in 132 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecruitMonty View Post
I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.
Well, I look at it in the same way the Messerschmitt P.1101 in 1945 was studied heavily by Bell for the X-5 of 1951 that tested different wing geometries in flight, which eventually led to the F-111A of 1964, the MiG-23 of 1967, and the Tornado of 1974.

So figure the Fa 283 V0 flies in maybe 1947 or 1948 and has some intruiging characteristics, like hitting an extremely high top speed for a VTOL/STOL craft, but poor payload performance from a dead stop (no power to rotor apparently) and high fuel consumption kind of do it in.

Eventually it's reworked circa 1949 or 1950 into the Fa.283 V1 which turns it from a simple gyrodyne into a compound helicopter by the addition of a 100-200 hp piston engine in the fuselage which turns the rotor; significantly improving payload carrying capability from a dead stop and other low speed flight characteristics. But the piston engine takes up too much room in the fuselage.

A couple years pass; and in 1952 or 1953, they re-work it again into the Fa.283 V2 which uses a 500 SHP turboshaft engine adopted from an experimental turboprop. The turboshaft is pretty bulky compared to modern (c.1960s) turboshafts, but it's significantly less weight and bulk than the piston engine.

Suddenly, it's possible to have a useful fuselage payload. Also, maybe around this time, they also replace the jet with a turboprop engine; and from there on, you have the family tree that leads to your "Von Cheyenne" that's in the game as the Do.410.
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old April 5th, 2016, 05:07 PM
RecruitMonty's Avatar

RecruitMonty RecruitMonty is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mainly Germany (München)
Posts: 824
Thanks: 178
Thanked 105 Times in 65 Posts
RecruitMonty is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Prior to the 410 you have the 407 too. A design from 1966.
__________________
"Wir Deutschen sollten die Wahrheit auch dann ertragen lernen, wenn sie für uns günstig ist."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RecruitMonty For This Useful Post:
  #324  
Old April 6th, 2016, 04:34 AM

IronDuke99 IronDuke99 is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 429
Thanks: 705
Thanked 98 Times in 78 Posts
IronDuke99 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

In reality US, British-Commonwealth and Soviet Russian weapon development all slowed down from about Spring 1945, since Japan never could have held out all that long after the fall of Germany, with, or even without, an US/allied 'A' Bomb.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...

Last edited by IronDuke99; April 6th, 2016 at 04:59 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old April 6th, 2016, 05:05 AM

IronDuke99 IronDuke99 is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 429
Thanks: 705
Thanked 98 Times in 78 Posts
IronDuke99 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.
Reply With Quote
  #326  
Old April 6th, 2016, 05:10 AM
Suhiir's Avatar

Suhiir Suhiir is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,256
Thanks: 232
Thanked 493 Times in 381 Posts
Suhiir is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

I'd be inclined to ignore paper projects entirely. Some of them (such as Project Habakkuk - the iceberg aircraft carrier) while actually technically feasible required such an outlay of resources as to make them impractical.

The same goes for early prototypes (i.e. non-functioning mock-ups).

Stuff that actually had a (reasonably) functional prototype in testing I could see.
__________________
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Suhiir For This Useful Post:
  #327  
Old April 6th, 2016, 07:27 AM
scorpio_rocks's Avatar

scorpio_rocks scorpio_rocks is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 835
Thanks: 181
Thanked 295 Times in 228 Posts
scorpio_rocks is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronDuke99 View Post
The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...
This HAS been redressed a little with the inclusion of Soviet and other Heavy Tanks and a few "Paper Tigers".

Of course that would also be an inordinate amount of work!
__________________

"Gentlemen, when the enemy is committed to a mistake - we must not interrupt him too soon."
Horatio Nelson.
Updated 2017 SPMBT Roundel Objectives Mod
Updated SPMBT Small ID Flags Mod
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old April 6th, 2016, 09:00 AM
RecruitMonty's Avatar

RecruitMonty RecruitMonty is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mainly Germany (München)
Posts: 824
Thanks: 178
Thanked 105 Times in 65 Posts
RecruitMonty is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).

Long story short.

Download the mod, (if you haven't already), look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.

If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.

The German kit is almost all based on designs that were going to be introduced. The rest is extrapolation very much within the realm of balance (you need to have a point of reference when you design an AFV from scratch and have in most cases nix to go on and that point of reference is invariably other kit from other oobs) and realism.

If you like I could put in some flying saucers.

The Do. 407 is already in the mod. I included it because the mod is already too full with analogue designs when it comes to helicopters.
__________________
"Wir Deutschen sollten die Wahrheit auch dann ertragen lernen, wenn sie für uns günstig ist."
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old April 6th, 2016, 07:50 PM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 864
Thanks: 64
Thanked 182 Times in 132 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronDuke99 View Post
To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.
The Ta-183 Huckbein, F-86, MiG-15 and Hunter would all cluster around the same time introduction (late 1940s), even with accelerated wartime development due to the peculiar characteristics of swept wings -- they're less forgiving of wing mismatches than straight winged aircraft -- in other words, the left/right wings have to be much closer to each other dimensionally than with a straight winged aircraft, or else one wing will stall before the other and cause a nasty spin.

Plus you're starting to encounter Mach Tuck in level flight (previously only encountered in high speed piston aircraft in dives), where your controls become steadily heavier and non-responsive as speed increases, and the nose drops and/or your controls reverse. Defeating that needs a lot of research into trans-sonic aerodynamics (and dead test pilots).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MarkSheppard For This Useful Post:
  #330  
Old April 6th, 2016, 08:23 PM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 864
Thanks: 64
Thanked 182 Times in 132 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecruitMonty View Post
I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).
COMRADE. Microsoft Notepad is your saviour!

(type lengthy replies in it, then cut and paste into your browser window).

Quote:
Download the mod, (if you haven't already)
**ADVERTISEMENT FOR THOSE FOLLOWING THIS THREAD**

DAS REICH 1.0P, 120 MB ZIP

**END ADVERTISEMENT**

Quote:
look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.
I wouldn't go as far as that, but the one field that the Germans were undisputably the leader in was liquid propellant rocketry -- every major rocket since 1945 traces it's lineage to the A-4/V-2.

Quote:
If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.
That can be arranged.

Quote:
If you like I could put in some flying saucers.
See attached

AVRO Canada was very big on saucer-like aircraft.

EDIT: I could SWEAR someone at some point did an Avro saucer icon.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20131120-Avrocar-Army.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	52.3 KB
ID:	14182  

Last edited by MarkSheppard; April 6th, 2016 at 08:47 PM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MarkSheppard For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2018, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.