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  #11  
Old December 5th, 2015, 11:43 AM

Griefbringer Griefbringer is offline
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

9.) Conscript squads (units 228 and 229) are size 2, even though they are regular infantry squads. Should probably be size 1 instead.
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  #12  
Old December 5th, 2015, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

That's deliberate
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  #13  
Old December 6th, 2015, 06:34 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Thanks for the info, I was not aware that it was by design.

Out of curiosity, are there other infantry units out there that have been designated as size 2 by design?
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  #14  
Old December 6th, 2015, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

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  #15  
Old December 6th, 2015, 11:22 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Thanks for the list! I must admit that I have not really spent much time playing with Slovak, Czech or Polish LWP forces, so would have probably never spotted those on my own.
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  #16  
Old December 11th, 2017, 08:26 PM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

I spotted an inconsistency in gun icons, but on the occasion, I found several old notes - just in case...


004 T-26 M1933 - Russian sources say, that turret had max armour 15 mm, without exception on gun mantlet (now 3). Unless we want to give them better chance of survival.
Roughly a half of produced T-26s were fitted with a radio (initially less, towards the end of production more). If a radio chance is not increased, it could receive more ammo - standard tanks (without radio and rear MG) carried 124 gun rounds (or even 136 according to other book) - now 100.

Same for unit 224, and, as for armour and radio chance, newer models 337, 338, 360

10 OT-133 - there's no mention, that flamethrower tanks received thicker armour - max 2.

33 SU-85 - precisely, SU-85 (and #303 T-34/85 M.1943) should have a gun D-5, not ZiS obr.44, with basically the same data.
BTW: ZiS obr.44 was more widely known as ZiS-S-53

42 BA-64 - first series was made by 24 April 42, and used in combat in summer (now 3/42). The MG was in fact AAMG (like in SdKfz 221)
Same for Polish LWP #044, Yugo #010, Czech #260

BTW: I'm not sure, if 6x4 armoured cars on truck chassis, like BA-3,6,10, British Lanchester, SdKfz-231 6-rad, should be in fact A/T-wheel - their cross-country capabilities were rather poor.

43 M5 Halftrack - US vehicles were delivered with armament (.30 or .50 MG) and very rarely were fitted with DShK (rather trucks in AA role only). Better name could be just Halftrack, because there were some 401 M5, 419 M9 and 342 M2 delivered (there is no Soviet designation known).

BTW: it would spoil several formations, but in fact the Soviets didn't "waste" precious APCs for regular infantry, which were happy to ride in trucks or on tanks. According to book by M. Bariyatynski on lend-lease vehicles, halftracks were used only as recce and staff vehicles - however only 118 out of some 1200 were used that way, while great majority were employed as gun tractors... I'd delete all Mech formations except for:
#24 Halftrack Pl (more likely reduced to 3 vehicles)
and #97 AT-Gun Pl/M, but with heavy AT guns (they could haul 100mm guns and 85mm AA ones indeed).
Anyway, it's worth to duplicate it as class 32 Scout vehicle, like M3A1 Scout Car, in spite of its greater capacity.

44 GAZ Truck - icon should be some open platform truck - the best seems 3179/3181. Now it has canvas all over a body, like some troop carrier, while GAZ-AA were simple trucks with a separate cab, rarely even seen with platform canvas.
Same for #465 and Polish LWP #284 and Yugo #016

45 ZiS Truck - best icon for ZiS-5 seems 3170/3172, with narrower body, and especially a nose. Yet it's bigger than GAZ.
Same for Polish LWP #175

46 Jeep - first jeeps (to be precise: Bantam) were delivered and used as early, as in autumn 1941 in battle of Moscow (now 7/43). Willys /Ford jeeps (both known just as "Willys", not jeep) were delivered from mid-42 (M. Bariyatynski's book)

If we'd like to be precise, Bantam BRC could be copied from US oob (#368) (unarmed, basic icon could be 99 to be different from Willys)

As well as other utility vehicles, they were also used to tow light AT guns (units 400-403) - there could be a formation added.

47 45mm L46 AT-Gun - there is a new icon 8022 (like unit 279)
Same for 401

48 45mm L66 AT-Gun - icon should be 8023, with longer barrel (like unit 190)
Same for 402 and Polish LWP #137, 139

49 57mm L73 AT-Gun - icon 8023 is rather long 45mm gun - ZiS-2 was bigger piece, with the same carriage as 76mm ZiS-3 (8025), but with long barrel - so the best seems icon 8024. Previously there was used 2101, but it doesn't look too good.

Same for 197, 283, 376 and other ZiS-2 units using 8023 or 2012 icons: Polish LWP #140-142, Yugo #142, Hungary #183, nat/Chinese #50, com/Chinese #50, German #332

52 76.2mm 02 FH - better name is "obr02 FH", like others. However, with such range (13km), it should be not basic obr.02, but modernized obr.02/30 - the same applies to its weapon 037

54 37mm AA-Gun - better icons might be similar 2809/2810


74 BM-8 Katyusha - truck variant on ZiS-6 had 36 rockets (now 24) (BM-8-36, late war one from 1942 on US trucks - even 48 - BM-8-48)

92,126 M3A1 Scout Car - known just as M3A1 Scout ("Skaut" in Russian).

111 BM-13 Katyusha - its combat debut was in 7/41 (now 1/41) - before the war there were only experimental vehicles built. Officially commissioned in 8/41 (would need change in formations 53, 109, 110).

112 85mm Gun - better icon for 85mm AA seems bigger 2813/14

113,132 100mm AT-Gun - much more similar (or maybe even proper) is icon 8028 (a picture https://weaponsandwarfare.files.word...pg?w=584&h=376 )

It seems, that the photo is 122mm howitzer - there is a correct one: https://www.quartermastersection.com...mg/100mmAT.jpg
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  #17  
Old December 12th, 2017, 08:02 PM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
113,132 100mm AT-Gun - much more similar (or maybe even proper) is icon 8028 (a picture https://weaponsandwarfare.files.word...pg?w=584&h=376 )
It was in fact one gun (BS-3 obr.44), but their weapons differ in range. According to an article in Polish Poligon (by Russian author), they have been delivered already in late 1944. There's no info, that new longer range ammo was developed in 5/45 - it used BR-412 full AP rounds with unknown range and BR-412B APBC rounds with a range 4000 m, although it isn't known when exactly specific rounds were introduced. Anyway, if we want to keep two guns, then #113 should be available earlier and end in 12/46.

114 BT-2 - first serial tanks were commissioned in 3/32 (now: 10/31), but only from mid-32 they were fitted with guns [book by M. Svirin] (in 10/31 only three iron tanks were made). Gun had 92 rounds.
Would need change in formations 05 and 153 first date.

Also from 1933 part of unarmed BT-2 received two paired DT machineguns in addition to a separate DT - there could be added such unit.
photos:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BT-2_MG.jpg
http://ww2tanki.ru/images/tanki/sove...nk-bt-2-24.jpg
a drawing is pm27828.
There are known photos of such tanks destroyed in 1941.

134 AOP light truck
- better photo might be GAZ truck 00166, now it's Dodge WC-62 (in rare in the USSR 6x6 version in addition).

Or maybe it's better to replace it with an early light staff car, like GAZ-A, commonly used by the army. There is similar (or the same?) photo 27596. The rest could be copied from some generic Wheel-only class utility vehicle, like British #286 Austin. Good icon is 2746/2748. It could also be copied as an early utility vehicle.

192,441 DT AAMG [1] - picture is 12.7mm DShK on non-AAMG mounting. DT was a tank machinegun, that could be dismounted (photo: 21033), although rather not used as a dedicated AAMG, though it was possible... We already have a single Maxim AAMG from 1930, so it might be easily deleted.

223 Il-10 "Beast" - later US codename should be removed IMO

280, 403 47mm L32 AT-Gun - Russian sources on artillery don't mention existence of pre-war 47mm AT-Gun at all (especially not "obr.35").
Only, according to Russian Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/47-%D0...%C3%B6hler_M35, 96 Latvian and 4 Estonian Bohlers were seized in 1940 - although their usage was surely limited. Then, their specifications should be changed. New icon for Bohler seems 8029.

On the other hand, Wikipedia mentions usage of captured Polish (and Finnish) 37mm Bofors in 1941 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/37-%D0...BE%D1%80%D1%81 (if it's copied, note, that a proper icon is 8000)

Also, 5800 of 2pdr guns were delivered from late 1941.

281, 282 76.2mm obr.42, 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG - new icon, probably dedicated for this gun (with muzzle brake) is 8026.
Same for #196

301 ZiS 42 - it was rather not a medium truck, but heavy (halftrack) truck used mainly as an artillery tractor. Max speed was 40 km/h (now 18)


318 SU-12 (SU-76) - IMO it should be named just SU-76. SU-12 name is redundant, since it was a developement stage designation, while it was commissioned as SU-76. Sabot ammo appeared only in 4/43 (and from 5/43 there appears SU-76M).
Front turret armour should be 4 (3) - it was sloped 35 mm in this variant (thinned in SU-76M)

336 Komsomolets STZ - STZ is redundant, but it could be designated T20 Komsomolets (same for 108,333 Komsomolets)

352 76.2mm obr36 IG - long and heavy F-22 divisional gun rather wasn't used as infantry gun.
It could be replaced with 76.2mm obr43 IG (Polish LWP unit #222, with its weapon, used from late 1943)

353 76.2mm 36 FG - new proper icon is 8024. Better name seems "76.2mm obr36 FG", in accordance with the others.

354 76.2mm 39 FG - new proper icon is 8025. Better name seems "76.2mm obr39 FG", in accordance with the others.

362 122mm 30 FH - better icon is 2115 - current has too long barrel (it was only L/15). Better name is "obr30 FH", or in fact "10/30 FH"

364 BA-27 - size should be 3 (now 2), speed only 45 km/h (now 27)
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  #18  
Old December 13th, 2017, 07:10 PM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
362 122mm 30 FH - better icon is 2115 - current has too long barrel (it was only L/15). Better name is "obr30 FH", or in fact "10/30 FH"
...to confirm this: upper view http://armor.kiev.ua/wiki/images/thu...2014_08_12.jpg
After re-thinking, better name than "obr30 FH" would be "obr.10 FH" - it was basically obr.1910, only modernized in 1930.

366 122mm 31 FG - better name is "obr31 FG". An icon is too light gun (and has a shield) - best seems 2123 (picture https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2012...35825_art2.jpg)
Winter icon seems an error.
Same for Polish LWP #158

367 122mm 31 Bty - same for the name

370 122mm M-30 FH - icon has too thin and long barrel for 122 mm howitzer, and doesn't resemble this piece at all. Best icon seems 2167 - it's also quite light, but has good proportions (picture http://technicamolodezhi.ru/rubriki_.../1971/art6.jpg)
Same for Polish LWP #154, German #133, Czech #186, Yugo #56, Hungarian #185, Finnish #182

385 37mm obr 15 IG - there is no info on 37mm infantry guns in a Russian encyclopedia on Russian WW2 artillery. Possibly it is trench gun Rozenberg obr.15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_trench_gun_M1915, but according to Russian Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/37-%D0...BE%D0%B4%D0%B0 it was withdrawn as soon, as in 1919. According to article https://web.archive.org/web/20070929....php?nid=18073 , unspecified 37mm guns were withdrawn from battalion artillery in 1931, as obsolete. Might be easily removed.
Same for #350

462 Jeep (AOP) - same remarks, as for #46 - delivered from mid-42, not counting Bantams.

466 ZiS Truck - same remarks, as for 45 (best icon is 3170/3172, with narrower body) (and without cargo, as personnel carrier)

517 T-26E
- first were made and used in combat in 2/40, by the end of Winter War (now 4/40). Armour should be better - 15 to 40 mm plates were used (without standardization), so I suggest 4/4/3/ 4/4/3. Drawings show extra armour on rear as well.

There should be also added screened OT-133 (might be called OT-133E), also used at the same time, starting from Winter War. It also should have lower speed.

BTW: according to Baryatynski's book, all T-26 flame tanks were in fact designated in documents KhT-26, -130, -133 ("Chemical tank"), and they are called OT in post-war literature. Probably the same applies to OT-27, which in a monograph is called by the author: "OT-27/KhT-27". Russian spelling XT-26 is tempting, but might be confusing

568 Maxim(x4) AAMG - it was accepted already in 1931
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97...BE%D0%B4%D0%B0 , although there's no information, when exactly they started to appear (now 1/37). There's no information about less typical 569 Maxim(x2), but I assume it was the same.

586 STZ-5- speed was only 21 km/h (now 10)

588 76.2mm BPK RG - a picture is actually 65mm prototype RPG. Photos are here:
http://www.cris9.armforc.ru/rva_bpk.htm
http://lavandamd.ru/index.php?option...10-04-15-42-05
Officially adapted in 8/32.

593 OT-27 - according to Russian book, produced from late 1932 (now 6/35) (it had 32-36 l of mixture, enough for 30 shots or 28 seconds). It also should have DT BMG.

595 OT-131"exp" - it had a flamethrower and 45mm gun instead of CMG (according to M. Kolomiets book)
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  #19  
Old December 13th, 2017, 11:30 PM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Speaking of the 122mm battery, is the range given (210 hexes) correct? The 203mm battery has a given range of 208, while the 152mm's are even less. Rather unusual, no?
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  #20  
Old December 14th, 2017, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

It is not the least bit unusual that a smaller shell has a greater range and besides the resident "error ferret" already blessed the range of that gun back in 2013

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49723

64 122mm obr 31/37 - 210, real 19.7 km = OK
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